Science requires overcoming childhood understanding

[lazs2]

I am not implying anything.. the article implies that all "mysticism" including religion is the same.

I am not implying that you have an agenda.. I am saying your posts prove it.   I don't care if it is labeled a "cry for help" or mean spirited agenda or whatever.. it is simply obvious.   Your motives matter little to me..   I am not smart enough nor do I care enough, to worry about motive.

lazs

[moot]

Hasty conclusions..

[Dadano]

You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.

For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.

But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages.

Einstein in 1954 on His 75th Birthday

[Chairboy]

Fantastic quote, Dadano, thanks!

[cpxxx]

Is it not a fact, that science, religion, mysticism, astrology etc all have roots in the human need to explain the world or the universe around them? They are in that way related.

If people retain their childlike belief magic or whatever, can this be a surprise? Adults ensure that children believe in magic, Santa, fairies etc. This coming at the most impressionable part of their lives. We all retain a little of that into adulthood. In fact, I often think nostalgically of the time when I believed the world made sense. It's nice to believe life has a purpose other than ensuring the maintenance of the species.

Science of course, is mostly about what can be proved or demonstrated repeatedly. That is not to say the others are not in fact real, merely because we cannot prove them. I always believe, (in an intuitive and unscientific way), that just because something is not yet understood doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Going back in the past, many things we take for granted now would appear to be black magic. Electricity, bacteria, radio waves, etc etc.

I, for example believe in ghosts as a phenomenon, with the proviso that their existence is probably scientifically explainable but not just yet. We simply haven't advanced that far scientifically. I also believe, (with no scientific basis whatsoever) that the ability to predict the future is sometimes probably because of something to do with Einsteinian relativity. Both beliefs come about because of some experiences I've had. I can either deny them or try to rationalise in some form of pseudo scientific way. I chose the latter. Others choose a more mystical approach.

I don't, therefore dismiss intuition out of hand. Our instincts are well honed over millions of years and few scientists will claim to know how our subconscious works.  Just because it's hard to prove something doesn't mean it's not real.

But I do have a problem when a religion, tries to push back science because it contradicts their world view. The old evolution-V-creationism debate. Although, I always maintain there is no debate. It's really caused by a literal belief in the bible which is not universal among Christians merely a small subset.

God and science are not mutually exclusive. But I don't believe in God. I'm not angry at God and I'm not part of any 'ism'. I simply don't believe there is some omnipotent being out there with my interests at heart however appealing that is. I'm quite happy to let others believe it, if it makes them happy.  I'm sure Seagoon has never been happier since he stopped being angry at God. I'm happy for him even though I have my own views on that subject.

Christian teleology and the belief of the survival of the soul gave men a reason to pursue science and an assurance that there were answers to be found and that they were actually part of the grand design of things.

There doesn't have to be a grand scheme of things. I'm happy enough knowing that when I die it ends for me. That in itself gives me incentive enough to make the most of my life right now.  That doesn't mean doing evil things. In any case as most people come to know, it's the nice stuff that makes life worth living, family, friends, good food and having something interesting and satisfying to do with your life. I don't need the fear of retribution or the loss of the golden ticket to heaven to make me be nice to people.  I do it because it makes life more bearable and pleasant.
Simple as that.

[moot]

Cpxxx, the article deals with undeniably mistaken theories.. whether born from freak occurences or made up from head to toe by bias such as anthropomorphism or other fancies of the mind.  These things seem fine on their own but inevitably break down when subjected to consistency checks with larger fields of view of the whole picture.  Eventualy a child will grow up to be at once aware of larger and larger amounts of the whole picture, and no fog of war (so to speak) is left for innacurate guesses as to what is unseen or how neighbouring parts coexist..

I often think nostalgically of the time when I believed the world made sense.

If something exists, it cannot not make sense.

Astrology for example.  You can find in your first hits in google whole communities and/or so-called reference websites that add their own theories to astrology out of thin air.. there's tons and tons of stuff that doesn't match other parts of the system, and comparable amounts that are just not consistent even with the basic premises.
And yet it is kept around because it

makes life more bearable and pleasant.
Simple as that.

And that's bias.. it's a conscious and deliberate departure from reason.  It is kept around because that, not accurate description of reality, is its purpose.

There doesn't have to be a grand scheme of things.

Even the most minute irrational element anywhere in a predictive construct, a clockwork of rationality so to speak, will pollute the proverbial given time by the clock.

[lazs2]

Ok... I believe there is a god.   I believe that science just doesn't have the ability to prove it yet tho.

lazs

[AKIron]

I suspect science may never be able to prove the existence of the supernatural, something which may be by definition beyond our natural existence. I believe that we are here for a purpose, perhaps one we were aware of and even yearned for prior to our current incarnation, and while that belief is not evidence it is also not insubstantial.

[Gunthr]

I really don't mind what anyone believes regarding the existence of a higher power.  i only care about my belief.  i don't push my beliefs on anyone.

 i just wonder about some of the evangelistic athiests who regularly make passive-aggressive aspersions and attempt to show supporting documentation in the guise of"interesting" news or articles, and insinuate that those who believe in some concept of God are stupid.    

it reminds me of the old ladys who regularly show up at your door with pamphlets about all the reasons why you have to believe what they believe.  

For some people, athiesm is not only a relgion, its a hobby.  and, i suspect that in their own minds, when they feel that they have "proven" on a BB that there is no God and that the believers are stupid, they get some sort of an emotional payoff.  

well, there are all kinds of people in this world.  if that is what they want to do with their time, its ok with me.

like Gump, thats all i have to say about that.

[AKIron]

Too bad the atheist will never be able to gloat and say "I told you so".

[moot]

Gunthr, as I understand it, it's the religious equivalent of those petty trolling evangelistis atheists you describe that Chairboy (mostly?) argues against.  I think both of them are equally trite and puerile.

I have to say that watching Dawkins' militant atheist speech as given at TED was a bit puzzling.  I mean, there's no god, so what's all the fuss about?  Just ignore it and focus on what is real.
Instead people (more or less) like him not only work to disprove the supernatural interpretation of natural phenomena but also work to discuss and establish rules of things that couldn't be studied or accounted for anyway.. it's a waste of time.
Just like Religion is of absolutely zero value in concrete reality.  What needs to be rooted out is not just pseudo-science but pseudo-spirituality/religion/etc, which was sort of what the article was after, as I understood it.

[Dadano]

Atheism  101
Atheism102

[lazs2]

Yep... that's it.. the athiests are preaching at us because they know all the evil that religion does around the world and they want to stop everyone from practicing it so that we have a better world like say... soviet russia was where no one was killed in the name of religion.

Point is..  moot gets it.. it is disturbing to see how fervent the athiests get...  I don't pretend to understand what drives em but I believe it is a combination of jealousy and anger.  It may also have some aspects of eliteism involved.

Like moot says.. you don't believe in god?  good deal.   now shut up about it.

I say the same for the religious of one religion or another... you think we get 72 virgins when you die?  great.. now shut up about it.

I understand that athiests don't want to be made to feel guilty about what they do and don't want someone telling them what to do...

neither do I...   I hate socialists but... they actually can tell me what to do... the religious can't.   I don't see them as a hated threat and I sure as hell don't feel guilty over the things they think I should feel guilty about.

As for the science?   even einstien felt a presence.. he claimed it did not watch over us or had any real design but that makes no sense.   I feel that there is a god and that we can tap into his strength if we ask.  I feel that I have been given strength when I asked and it was more than I was capable of.

I don't pretend to understand my god past these simple things and don't expect you to even care.

lazs

[Booz]

Originally posted by lazs2
I don't pretend to understand my god past these simple things and don't expect you to even care.
lazs

 cool, now shut up about it

[Dadano]

I mean, there's no god, so what's all the fuss about? Just ignore it and focus on what is real.

Dawkins' believes that Islamic/Judeo-Christian philosophy is dangerous. Much the same way as Einstein believed patriotism and nationalism were detrimental to humanity. It has to do with the divisiveness of the beliefs and the intolerance they breed. From this intolerance comes hate and from this hate comes persecution.

Edit: Not to mention children being intellectually abused.