Th course of British Society in the future

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Major Biggles, with all due respect to your views, I think you can't see the forest for the trees.  I consider the defense of my family and life a proper use of a firearm.

If you consider the U.K.'s gun laws to be "just right" that is well and good.  But if gang crime in your country continues to worsen, what are the elderly to do?  Stay at home and never venture forth without a bodyguard?  

I'm 53 years old.  If confronted by a knife-wielding punk I would have a very hard time outrunning him.  True, I could give him what he wanted, but what if he wants my life?  Suppose he and some of his wolfish brethren kick in my door late one night.  Loading and using a long-gun in the dark is difficult at best.  If I used a gun to kill one of them, would your court system think my actions were justified?

Major, I deal with these punks every working day.  My place of employment is a juvenile detention center where we handle the worst kids in the state.  I've gained quite a bit of insight into what makes them tick:  Drugs, glorified violence, illicit sex, money.  But their revelling in violence is the most troubling, whether of not they have a gun available or not.  They are thrill-seekers, and they tend to seek a bigger and bigger thrill with each week that passes, steadily ratcheting up their violence and other activities.

Within the last two years, some of our parolees have committed three murders and an untold number of felony assaults.  They enjoy it.  Two of these murders were committed with a gun, but the most brutal was committed with a pair of scissors, against a woman from my home town.  Hardened police officers of my acquaintance were deeply shaken by what they saw when they arrived on the scene.

None of the victims was armed, for they were law-abiding citizens.  Three decent, worthwhile citizens had their lives snuffed out by thrill-seeking animals:  a father, a mother, and a 76 year old grandfather who was slain because he had no money.  One of those murders was planned by one of our inmates while he was in our custody, and he would have carried it out if he had had to use a baseball bat.

Most of our young inmates are not that hard-core, but enough are to give one pause.

From some of the posts by your fellow Brits in this thread, I gather that gang violence is worsening in your country.  If you are comfortable with the current laws of your country regulating the use of firearms for self-defence then more power to you.  Deal with that problem as you see fit.

But if one of these predators shows up on my front doorstep unnanounced I will answer the door with a gun in my hand.

Do I live in fear?  Not in so many words.  I live a normal life, as do most Americans.  I don't live in an inner city where much of this sort of gang violence takes place.  There are still a lot of Mayberry's in this country.

I just prefer that my options not be limited.

Regards, Shuckins

ahhhh, but the gang problem isn't too big. in america the gangs are bad because they all have guns. here you have to go to some trouble to get one. the gangs keep to themselves. unfortunately though the knife gangs are a problem. again, the violence is usually between gangs and stuff, but hey.

but the fact is, the UK's guncrime levels are minute compared to america because of gun control, and that's a good thing. some guy with a knife breaks into my house, i shoot him with my crossbow, my rifle, beat him up with a stick etc, still plenty of options, while keeping handguns (which are very dangerous) off the streets. provided i take him out within my property, even with a crossbow or something, it'd be fine as long as you didn't go over the top and bludgeon the corpse or something crazy.

americans like to have a way to defend themselves in the form of a handgun, but that comes at a cost of thousands of lives every year, people who die because the other guy had a gun, and they didn't, or because they didn't have to react. americans are prepared to pay that price, but we brits don't want that. we can still have fun shooting at ranges and things if we like, or own a gun for whatever we like provided it's a legal gun and we have a permit. the fact is though, that the brits just aren't prepared to pay for the use of handguns with the cost of so many lives, we'd rather tdo it the english way with our fists

america and britain are happy with their respective rules though, so as long as we're both happy, it's all good

[Laurie]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
68hawk?  


*crickets*

[-CodyC]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Yes, it is.  Have you been under a rock?  Remember the soccer game where Mexico played the US, in the US?  The predominantly hispanic crowd didn't just cheer for for Mexico, the roundly booed the US. They booed our National Anthem, hung US flags upside down. They threw beer cans and trash at the American team.  They physically assualted the AMerican supporters in the stands.  Celebrate their heritage?

 This is a typical anecdote of their sentiments.  Are you not listening to what they are saying?

Here's some quote from some of their leaders here:



 

 

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Bill Clinton:

I'll step in here since i agree with a lot(not all) of what hawk said.

Your soccer game example really falls short of the mark.  You were shooting for an example that showed how Mexicans in the US hate the US and want to turn the US into a new Mexico(please correct me if my assumption is wrong here).  I hope you can understand how everyone outside of the US is brought up loving, for the most part, only one sport, football(called soccer by those of us who know what real football is).  So with their love of the game they have a loyalty to their country of origin in which the sport was so popular.  Yes their behavior at the game was out of line, but even in the US fans of US teams get out of hand(im sure you've watched ESPN at some point in your life and seen this, if not, search it on You tube).  Your soccer game comparison would be like me moving to Texas to live after i graduate and then going to OU/Texas football game in Dallas and not cheering for OU, but Texas since i live there.  You think that is gonna happen?  I guarantee you that they have more pride in their nationality, as i do, than i have for my alma mater.  

Also, soccer doesn't have a very big following in the US, had that stadium been filled with a large portion of US fans it might have been a different story.  Not to mention the fact that the rest of the world is so passionate about soccer that those of us in the states have a hard time understanding why they can get so violent.  I do want to say that im not hating on soccer, because when EPL is in full swing i am glued to Fox Soccer Channel.

So hopefully we have cleared up how bad of an example that was, now look at two of the three quotes you posted.  You have no name attached to them, just quotes.  So what you're doing is taking two random quotes, which no doubt were probably made by a Mexican national who is now residing in the US(we can't know for sure, but i'll assume it was, as you did), and applying them to the entire group of Mexican nationals living in our country.  You expect to maintain a shred of credibility by quoting the extremists in a movement and applying it to the whole group?  We already had that problem once with idiots going around beating up muslims because they put them all in the same group with those responsible for the attacks.

Now let me tell you where i stand on the issue before you start getting the wrong idea.  This new Immigration naturalization bill is the biggest POS bill introduced in quite some time.  I'm sorry but no matter how you cut it, the large number of illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy.  I'm not saying they are the only drain, but they aren't making matters any better AND they are not here legally.  If our economy is going to go in the crapper, then i would prefer we let it spiral out of control because of the apathy of our legal US citizens.  That way, in the end, the only ones we have to blame are ourselves.  

So, my overall opinion on the immigration problem in the US.  Continue guarding the border, get rid of these gun-toting "i'm defending our borders from these illegals who come over here and 'take our jobs'(soutpark reference)" minutemen and let our military do the job.  We've got night vision and we've got guns.  If a couple of them end up being shot(now we don't have to kill em, we can wound em and throw them in a mexican hospital somewhere), then you might have a few more trying to get into the country the legal way.  Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, who knows.  

I'll provide one last example about my experience with a legal mexican national.  I work at Wal-mart as a manager and we have a few employees who can't speak any English at all.  One we just hired who has only been in country for 6 months.  As chance would have it i speak quite a bit of spanish.  This guy and I sit down and talk, he points out where i go wrong in my grammar and i teach him how to translate different verb tenses from spanish to english.  This guy is great, he is trying to learn the language, he works harder than a lot of the guys i have that do his job(not all mind you) and he is happy.  Not only that, and here's the kicker, he is here LEGALLY.  So i don't want you to leave this post thinking that i love Mexicans, or that I hate them, i want you to understand that i believe in the law.  I also believe in a good work ethic and if you are here legally and are willing to learn our language, then by all means stay, fill the job of someone who isn't willing to put out half the effort because they know they can get fired and file for unemployment and not have a work a day in their life.

EDIT:  Sorry for the hijack.

[Hap]

Cody,

Your post caught my eye on two points:


1) American hating.  And yes, the soccer example isn't the best.  Just like the O'Club forum.  In the soccer game, you might have beered up Mexicans doing the "down with America" thing.  And to reason "well there you have it.  They ALL hate us," is false reasoning.  

Imagine if the only "picture" of America that world had were the O'Club Forum?    Or if the O'Club ran America's foriegn and domestic policy?  I think the only conclusion folks could draw is "wow, they're all barking mad!"  Not each and everyone one mind you, but . . . well you get the picture.

Oh, as a sidelight, I read that we're still well liked amongst some Eastern European countries.

2) Law abiding hard working folk.  I, too, have met folks like this, and I do not and did not know their citizenship status.  Sure makes life nicer doesn't it?

I really don't know why our borders, during the last 50 years say, haven't been secured.  There's the explanation of "they do jobs American's won't do."  That one never convinced me.  "Greed" high up the ladder is an explanation I can better buy into.

Then there's the "do you really want to pay $10 for a cabbage?  Because that's what it will cost you if an American is paid a liveable wage to pick it."  Back to the greed factor for me.

I recall all the pro-American and anti-Canada/European talk during my life regarding health insurance, gas prices, oh you name it.  Now I've lived long enough, 50 years, to be able to consider that maybe "our way" wasn't so hands down superior after all, and "their way" so lousy and wrong.

It all goes back to the big question, "why are we here?"

[lazs2]

at the risk of a highjack... I may not know all there is to know about england but I do know people..   It seems to me that you have always had a relatively "polite" or civilized society.. guns have never mattered before...

name a gun law that was enacted and made serious crime go down.  Our guns probly stop more killings than cause and.. they make crime go down not up.

With all due respect... you don't know a thing about my country tho.   You claim to know that our gangs are a problem because of guns?   our gangs are a problem because they are criminal scum.    

I could get a handgun in your country if I were living there in less than a month..  I could make one in a few days.

At some point.. and this is the trend you yourself is pointing to... your "tradition" of polite and fair and civilized....

That will all fall apart because there will be so few of you who even know there is a tradition..  the animals will roam the streets and you will be unable to defend yourself because your government made a huge mistake.

If you let citizens carry handguns in your country concealed...  but kept your strict penalties for abuse of firearms... like what you have now for just touching one... you would not see citizens murdering each other at any different rate than they do now... you would have freedom and you would reduce crime.

Like I said.. me shooting one of the "happy slappers" would make you (or your wife or grandpa) less likely to be "happy slapped" next week.

back on topic.. I do see a deterioration of england by third world contributions to the population... in some respects that is very sad.. in others inveitable.. the brits have a history of not only good but evil... class distinctions that are disgusting and violate all normal thinking on human rights.. a history of defeating nations and plundering them and dehumanizing the citizens.

Some of this is coming home to roost..  there is no place for these third worlders in your class system.   No place but ghettos.

You guys have one hell of a lot more to worry about than global warming in my opinion.

lazs

[Hap]

Originally posted by lazs2 our gangs are a problem because they are criminal scum.

Over the past 3 years or so, I've reflected upon what is commonly referred to as the Medieval times.  Specifically those time prior to the establishment of prisons as a place to put folks who behave badly.

It's worth reading about.

[SteveBailey]

68hawk  said they were celebrating their heritage. Will you explain to me how hanging US flags upside down and assaulting US citizens is celebrating their heritage?  Explain to me how those quoted are merely celebrating their heritage.

Cody, I left out the person's name in the quotes merely to reduce space.  These are not random  mexican nationals but leaders of the hispanic community here in the US.  They are not considered extremists by the illegals, based on their large following.

Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die… Through love of having children, we are going to take over.
- Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets

"They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."
- Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council

"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."
-Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico

"We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion
is in our population. I love it. They are sh**ing in their pants with fear. I love it."
- Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas

"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California.
- Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party

"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country. I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."
- Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor

"California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."
- Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations (and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under former CA Governor Jerry Brown. Also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton)

"We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California." [Reconquista = reconquest]
- Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General

"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos…"
- Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University

[-CodyC]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
68hawk  said they were celebrating their heritage. Will you explain to me how hanging US flags upside down and assaulting US citizens is celebrating their heritage?  Explain to me how those quoted are merely celebrating their heritage.

Cody, I left out the person's name in the quotes merely to reduce space.  These are not random  mexican nationals but leaders of the hispanic community here in the US.  They are not considered extremists by the illegals, based on their large following.

You provided the context, i told you where you went wrong.  

Hanging flags upside down?  Granted the flag we speak of us the symbol of our country and there are men and women fighting to defend it as we speak.  In the context in which you provided it does not fall in line with celebrating their heritage.  It is a game.  It is Mexico vs. the United States.  I don't see how, at a game, hanging a US flag upside down is saying "i want the United States to roll over so my chicano brothers and sisters can take it all over."  I see it in much the same way as any Oklahoma fans might see it when we hang a Longhorns flag upside down.  So celebrating their heritage?  No, it's a game.  Assaulting a US citizen?  Of course this isn't celebrating their heritage.  It is an overreaction and those responsible should have been prosecuted.  To me, this soccer game that you brought up had nothing to do with heritage and had more to do with a game that they felt strongly about as does the rest of the world.

Because they have a large following they are not considered extremists by those that follow them?  Well i would hope not, otherwise why would they follow them?  But those that follow them are, in my mind, extremists as are the ones they follow.  Much like Jesse Jackson, in my opinion, is an extremist and so are all those that follow him.  Jerry Falwell was an extremist.  Pat Robertson is an extremist.  I know that not all christians think that pat robertson best represents their set of beliefs, therefore i don't lump them all in the same crowd.

So unless you have some way of proving to me that the 35 million(not sure how many there are) illegal immigrants in this country all believe that "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion
is in our population. I love it. They are sh**ing in their pants with fear. I love it."  I'll stick to not holding every single one of them accountable for the comments made by someone who is supposedly an educated man.  Then again he does teach at UT. (pwned) dam i need a texas fan in here

[SteveBailey]

Cody, I didn't go wrong anywhere. Let me spell this out for you .... again.
68hawk claimed these people were celebrating their heritage. I used the upside down flag and assaulting supporters of the US team as going beyond celebrating their heritage... that's all.  I didn't claim these criminals at the soccer match were, as you said, not me

want the United States to roll over so my chicano brothers and sisters can take it all over."

I'm not going to let you put words in my mouth so you can win a debate.

My point was that many of the illegals and their leaders are taking agressive tones and actions that go far beyond "celebrating their heritage"
I don't have to prove anything to you about 35 million anybody, that was not the point of my argument.
 
Hitler's followers didn't consider him an extremist.  Look what he did.  Don't bother trying to say I'm calling these illegal extremists Hitler's, I used Hitler to make a point. Extremists are dangerous.  You may consider Falwell dangerous but I can't recall him fomenting violence... nice try.

 The words and actions of these illegals go way beyond celebrating their culture.  If you want to debate this with me fine, but quit trying to twist my point so  you can argue it.

[-CodyC]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Hitler's followers didn't consider him an extremist.  Look what he did.  Don't bother trying to say I'm calling these illegal extremists Hitler's, I used Hitler to make a point. Extremists are dangerous.  You may consider Falwell dangerous but I can't recall him fomenting violence... nice try.

When i said, "Because they have a large following they are not considered extremists by those that follow them? Well i would hope not, otherwise why would they follow them? " i was restating what you said with the first question and then answering rhetorically while trying to agree with you.  If i was unclear what i was trying to say is that yes those quotes you posted are in fact the words of extremists.  If they do in fact have a following then those that follow them are extremists even though they don't think they are.  Obviously if they thought their leaders were extreme then they wouldn't follow, this was what i was trying to say.  Sorry for the confusion on this one.  

I don't consider Falwell or Pat Robertson dangerous in any way, there was no attempt to compare the two methods.  Is it a pre-requisite to be violent just to be considered an extremist?

And you are quite right, i did put words in your mouth when i stated the comment about the "chicano brothers and sisters."  I was just expressing the, well, extreme way one could look at something so simple as a flag upside down at a game.  I do apologize.

Steve ill say one last thing on the subject and let it lay.  In regards to what im assuming is hawk's opinion of celebrating their heritage and fighting for their equal rights.  Well if he is referring to the walkouts and massive protests that we had some months ago then i disagree.  To me those protests made me a little sick to my stomach.  Simply because if a large portion of those protesting are illegal immigrants then they have obviously looked past the fact that we haven't taken a harsh stance on illegal immigrants and are taking our inaction for granted.  If they were trying to get equal rights well then they should have become citizens the legal way.

Finally, steve, i had no desire to win a debate, i was just trying to argue the point and the point was simply that i did not think that the example of the soccer game that you gave worked well to argue either side of the matter.  I don't think it is really possible to win the debate over this issue anyway, at least not yet.

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by lazs2

[..  there is no place for these third worlders in your class system.  


lazs [/B]

Class system??  What class system is that lasz?  You've been watching too many imported Edwardian period dramas.  The remnants of the aristocracy are regarded with mild amusement.  The working classes as they were have disappeared along with the mining, ship building and heavy engineering industries.  Everyone's middle class now, it's official - ask Tony Blair.  I'll wager there's no more of a class system in the UK than any European country, or the US - especially east coast.

[lazs2]

if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?    

lazs

[Major Biggles]

Originally posted by lazs2
if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?    

lazs

good manners, modesty, gentlemanly values, something which no other country seems to understand

[Hap]

Originally posted by Major Biggles
good manners, modesty, gentlemanly values, something which no other country seems to understand

Excellent virtues Major.  I'm for them all

[Laurie]

Originally posted by lazs2
if there is no class system then exactly what "traditions" are you guys afraid of losing?    

lazs

Being Great Britain  

Britain was once the most successful and powerful country on earth, setting an example to the rest of the world with pride and patriotism for Queen and Country, This is what we have lost.

Our country is now one without character and charisma.