Author Topic: Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect  (Read 4970 times)

Offline straffo

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 02:40:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Again Widewing, the intardnet-historian, is disputing professional test pilots and controlled test dives with mach meters.


RAE is over rated.

Offline Viking

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 05:19:32 AM »
Over modeled you mean. ;)

Offline Widewing

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2007, 05:46:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Again Widewing, the intardnet-historian, is disputing professional test pilots and controlled test dives with mach meters.


I can when the data flies in the face of physics...

By the way, if you wish to participate in a manly discussion, please change out of your tutu first. Inasmuch as you rarely have anything of substance to contribute, feel free to sod off.....

Widewing
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YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Dream Child

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2007, 06:29:31 PM »
Oh brother. We're talking about maximum dive speed of a Typhoon, as if the physics of this game were realistic. In case you don't understand, the physics of this game aren't real, and even the much ballyhooed torque effects aren't close to what they would do in real life. It's a game, it's not real, and unless we're going to go test these planes, as originally designed, and using properly installed modern instruments, we really aren't going to know what the actual capabilities are. In the FWIW category, not even the Bell X-1 had a properly working mach meter when it broke the sound barrier the first time.

"Yeager: We didn't—we had no idea anything was going to happen. There was some indication on the previous Friday's flight that we had a very large error in our Mach meter. Otherwise we were indicating about 9.3, or .94 Mach number which was 94 percent of the speed of sound. There's some indication when NACA reduced the data from our instrumentation in the airplane that we're going a lot faster than indicated. And there was some, a little bit of excitement that said, hell, we, it looks like we've, we've been up to about 99 percent of the speed of sound. And we still are in buffeting and the airplane is shaking quite a bit. You know, they weren't sure, because you, you're in an area where very little is known. They had no wind tunnel data, nothing, and everything was trial and error. And there was some indication that we had been going faster than we had thought. But we had no idea what was going to happen on the next flight. And when we got the airplane up to oh, about 96 percent of the speed of sound indicated, that was almost Mach 1. And when we went a little faster the Mach meter went off the scale. And ah, when it did all the buffeting smoothed out, because of the supersonic flow of the whole airplane. And even I knew we had gotten above the speed of sound. And I let it accelerate on out to about 1.06 or 1.07, seven percent above the speed of sound, and the airplane flew quite well. And I got some elevator effectiveness back, but not very much."

( Copied from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/barrier/men.html )

Observation: The X-1 had proven inaccurate instrumentation, even though it was the most advanced plane of the time.

Conclusion: Published performance data for WWII aircraft, even from the manufacturer, isn't necessarily correct.

If HTC ever makes a perfect physics engine, then great. If they ever do, then by definition, the performance of the aircraft will end up exactly where they should be, as long as the planes physical data is accurate. If that ever happens, there will be others who complain about it not matching published data, so the argument will never end. Until then, it's just a game. A fun game, granted, but still a game.

Offline 1K3

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2007, 06:39:53 PM »
I heard there's a new sim game that will use "fluid physics" as oppose to decades old "vector physics":noid

Offline leitwolf

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2007, 04:23:26 AM »
driven by the new line of quantum computers? ;)
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline Hazzer

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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 06:04:02 AM »
The P 38 was notorius for it's compressability problems in the dive...in all I have read about the Typhoon,and it  had many problems-carbon monoxide ingress in's to cockpit,tails detaching,engine failiure's none of which were fully solved compressaability in the dive never seemed to bother it's pilots most of whom prefered to dive bomb - when carrying bombs-due to the better chances of a hit and less chance of being brought down by AAA.

  The pilot handbook says it all,Typhoon pilots had a lot to worry about compessability was not one of them.

   :aok
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Offline Charge

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 07:57:21 AM »
I pretty much agree with Widewing in his analysis and I'd like to point out the difference between early Hurricane and Spitfire designs having same hp and very different speed characteristics. The same kind of comparison can be used between Tiffie and Tempest too. The Tiffie has the weight and power to make a high speed dive but I guess that the wings are under tremendous stress where their thickness and strength are really needed, but that because of their unsuitability for such flying.

But it is an aerodynamical fact that thickness can be troublesome depending of the location of the thickest point as if it is near the leading edge as in 2300 series and not in the middle as in profile used in e.g. Pony. Wing sweep can help to overcome compressibility effects in thick profiles but there are practical limits too and IMO Tiffie does not have such sweep to have any significant effect.

My guess is that Tiffie feels like diving like a brick meaning the relative lack of responsiveness when compared to planes with better suited profiles for high speed such as in e.g. Spitfire.

The behavior that troubles me is the behavior of such thick profile in high speed when the elevator tries to force it to change its AoA. Does it respond readily or just fall through the air in compression effect without noticeable change in flight path?

-C+
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Offline Bucky73

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 10:42:36 AM »
Wow Widewing......your one smart cookie:aok

Offline Laurie

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 10:46:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Golly, if that kind of change ever happened that's gonna piss a lot of chickenshi* BoreNZoomer Tiffy addicts.


 Such a lovely thing to imagine.. mmmm


It's a more challenging flight than most of the planes flown commonly in AH.

Offline B3YT

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2007, 04:58:22 PM »
this just looks like americans trying to say that thier planes were / are best ever and every one elses stink...blah blah blah......we won the war.....blah blah blah......we had ben afflick.....blah blah blah......
As the cleaners say :"once more unto the bleach"

Offline Souless

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2007, 05:27:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B3YT
this just looks like americans trying to say that thier planes were / are best ever and every one elses stink...blah blah blah......we won the war.....blah blah blah......we had ben afflick.....blah blah blah......


Not at all actually

Offline Ack-Ack

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2007, 05:28:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B3YT
this just looks like americans trying to say that thier planes were / are best ever and every one elses stink...blah blah blah......we won the war.....blah blah blah......we had ben afflick.....blah blah blah......


And is your reply your attempt to look like an idiot?  

All Widewing has done is point out a possible discrepancy with one of the aircraft.  No where in any of Widewing's post does he even allude to anything remotely you're accusing him of doing.

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Offline VERTEX

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2007, 06:31:29 PM »
Widewing's posts are amoung the most articulate and informed you will ever find on this BB. I always enjoy reading them.

He should consider changing his name to wisewing.

Offline Viking

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Typhoon critical mach modelling correct or incorrect
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2007, 07:02:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I can when the data flies in the face of physics...

By the way, if you wish to participate in a manly discussion, please change out of your tutu first. Inasmuch as you rarely have anything of substance to contribute, feel free to sod off.....

Widewing



Watch that blood pressure now... And if you're having fantasies of me in a tutu you should be more concerned about your own manliness, not to mention your sanity.