The God Arguement

[Dowding]

...it seems a bit early to dismiss everything because, mathematically, a bumblebee cannot possibly fly.

This is a myth. 'Mathematics' does not fail, the classical physics models applied do. If you use modern aerodynamic learning it can be proven for the bee to fly. Which is a good thing.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Furball
In the future, the current religions will go the way of ancient religions and be study material...  People will wonder "how anyone ever believed such things".

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/ancient_religions.htm

I am very interested in other people's views, and very much respect them.  I find it fascinating listening to Seagoon and asking him questions on his beliefs, but i still cannot believe the stories of the bible - as much as i would like to.

Christianity is what, about 1,000 years now.
Judaism is at least twice that old dating back to at least the time of the great Pharos

Just curious how old a religeon has to be before it is considered "ancient"?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Christianity is what, about 1,000 years now.
Judaism is at least twice that old dating back to at least the time of the great Pharos

Just curious how old a religeon has to be before it is considered "ancient"?

hehe, you do know what 2007 AD means right?

[x0847Marine]

If god created "life", and "life" has meaning... what about animals?

A male Lion will kill offspring from another male so that his bloodline is guaranteed to continue, acceptable behavior in Lion circles. If I were to slaughter 2 kids of some chick so that I could hump her pregnant, I'd go to prison and be considered "bad".

Does the Lion get to play a harp with the supernatural for being a successful Lion, while I go to hell for being called evil by other people?

I'm only following the example of nature, created by god...  accomplishing the same thing; extending my blood line. So what matters in the end is peoples judgement, if I'm considered evil & bad, well then the assumption is it's off to hell I go. The Lion dies with no judgement, only the success, or lack, of his work killing cubs and replacing them with his own.

Does god ignore cruel acts of animals? .. as defined by humans, the little innocent cute furry harmless Lion cubs suffered a horrific death, getting chewed to death by Simba probably hurts, and doesn't look like fun.

[Shuckins]

Nature is an amoral system.  There isn't a single animal on the face of the earth that has the intellect to make differentiations between "right" and "wrong."

Except for one....man.  

Some atheists attempt to graft humanity's morality system onto the actions of nature's denizens as a means of debunking belief in God.  Yet, if all of nature possessed man's aversion to killing there would be disastrous, runaway procreation by the animal kingdom, followed by mass starvation.

THAT is why one has never heard of a Biblical code of conduct for the animal kingdom.  The system couldn't work any other way.  

Mankind is different....we know full well what murder is....so the rules are different for us, as they should be.  Therefore, we are held accountable for our actions...by governmental authorities if one is an atheist, and also by God, if one is a deist.

A religious man believes that, while mankind might have developed within this natural system, he was meant to rise above it.  

Regards, Shuckins

[john9001]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Nature is an amoral system.  There isn't a single animal on the face of the earth that has the intellect to make differentiations between "right" and "wrong."

Except for one....man.  
 

well then why does "man" decide on the "wrong" action too many times?

maybe man does not have the intellect to tell the difference between right and wrong, that means man is defective.
Man was made by god so then god is defective.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Shuckins
Some atheists attempt to graft humanity's morality system onto the actions of nature's denizens as a means of debunking belief in God.

It is very much true that certain facets of what we call morality are to be found in certain parts of the animal kingdom.  That does not imply that God doesn't exist or that man wasn't created in God's image.  Both those ideas are perfectly compatible with morality in animals.  It just has no bearing on the God question, either way.

Originally posted by Shuckins
Yet, if all of nature possessed man's aversion to killing there would be disastrous, runaway procreation by the animal kingdom, followed by mass starvation.

THAT is why one has never heard of a Biblical code of conduct for the animal kingdom.

Umm, no.  The reason other animals don't follow the kind of complex "code of conduct" that we do is primarily because their brains aren't big enough, and there was no selective pressure for them to do so.  In the case of humans, there was selective pressure for the foundations of morality, and we have brains big enough to extend that to higher levels of complexity.

And frankly, it's a damn good thing that we *don't* derive our morals from the Bible.  The Bible contains all sorts of grotesque immorality.  We use our own moral sense to judge what parts of the Bible are good and what parts need to be discarded.  Any morality (and immorality) in the Bible comes from its human authors.

Originally posted by Shuckins
A religious man believes that, while mankind might have developed within this natural system, he was meant to rise above it.

It may shock you to learn that non-religious people live morally also.  Sometimes more morally, because his moral sense hasn't been distorted by ancient and often barbaric scriptures.

[Gunthr]

"The only alternative is that there isn't a creator and we end when we die meaning there is no meaning."

Well there can be a God but that does not mean our lives have a meaning and that we do not end when we die.

If there is a God the level of our thinking and reasoning probably cannot comprehend the nature of his existence. What I mean is that our thinking is limited by our quite simple perceptions of this world and learning and the social nature of our being. By social nature of our being I mean that everything that we say or think has to do with the nature of our existence which is mainly social in that it is about thinking what others might think and learning what others think and why. Thus our way of thinking is always hindered by certain boundaries which dictate the inner methodology of our reasoning structures. This may lead into a disturbing thought that when we fully understand what God is, we are...?

What troubles me is that it seems many times that many kinds of religious and fundamental hard values are actually a slight mockery of His possible existence and are run by a desperate fear of some missed "salvation" and are not run by a genuine love to Him and His "creation" (i.e. all that Exists). This also raises a thought of love, do we "love" because of ourselves? By this thought it is also revealed what I meant with social way of thinking and that is mainly what our religions are about. We do not believe alone, but in groups.

I have often though what would remain if a huge comet would come and render Earth into a dead piece of mud. If there was a God would He allow that to happen or would that simply be a part of his "plan" or just one event in his creation serving the meaning of "being"? Hell, even our language and words act as a means of restricting our expression but that serves as a bridge between people and different thoughts. As they cannot deliver the exact idea the other person actually has of complicated matters they simply act as a guideline and this once again shows how much our social existence dictates our thinking.

Well, that sounds complicated...  

-C+

great post, Charge!  I have an intuitive personal faith in God and i feel a connection with God, but i distrust the various organized religeons and their doctrines, including atheism.  

but its true, we clever humans cannot know what exists or what doesn't exist outside the very narrow confines of our human experience.  

we can perhaps subjectively feel an inner yearning for a God,  or we can perhaps feel an inner yearning for order so great that it rules out the possibillity of God or anything else we cannot directly sense...

 or we can imagine, or guess at things outside our experience if we want to, but we cannot know.  

it is like trying to imagine a new color unlike anything we have seen before.  that is why atheism is just as much a faith or religion as is the belief in God.  its also why we should all respect the beliefs of others, and keep religeon and government separate.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Gunthr
i distrust the various organized religeons and their doctrines, including atheism.

I don't know of any "doctrines" of atheism.  Can you name one?

And I don't think atheists are "organized", either.  

Originally posted by Gunthr
but its true, we clever humans cannot know what exists or what doesn't exist outside the very narrow confines of our human experience.  

we can perhaps subjectively feel an inner yearning for a God,  or we can perhaps feel an inner yearning for order so great that it rules out the possibillity of God or anything else we cannot directly sense...

 or we can imagine, or guess at things outside our experience if we want to, but we cannot know.  

it is like trying to imagine a new color unlike anything we have seen before.  that is why atheism is just as much a faith or religion as is the belief in God.

I fail to see how your last statement follows from the others.  Seems like a non-sequitur to me.  Atheism is simply a philosophical position stating that there is no evidence for the existence of God.  That is, God is as likely as all other things that have no evidence (Santa, Flying Spaghetti Monster, teapot orbiting Mars, etc).  I don't see how that is a "faith" (i.e. a belief without evidence).

Originally posted by Gunthr
its also why we should all respect the beliefs of others

Should we respect the belief that Muslim suicide bombers go to paradise?  How about the one that apostates and infidels should be murdered?

Originally posted by Gunthr
keep religeon and government separate.

I'm with ya there.

[Gunthr]

quote:
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Originally posted by Gunthr
i distrust the various organized religeons and their doctrines, including atheism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know of any "doctrines" of atheism. Can you name one?

And I don't think atheists are "organized", either.  - phookat


quote:
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Originally posted by Gunthr
but its true, we clever humans cannot know what exists or what doesn't exist outside the very narrow confines of our human experience.

we can perhaps subjectively feel an inner yearning for a God, or we can perhaps feel an inner yearning for order so great that it rules out the possibillity of God or anything else we cannot directly sense...

or we can imagine, or guess at things outside our experience if we want to, but we cannot know.

it is like trying to imagine a new color unlike anything we have seen before. that is why atheism is just as much a faith or religion as is the belief in God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fail to see how your last statement follows from the others. Seems like a non-sequitur to me. Atheism is simply a philosophical position stating that there is no evidence for the existence of God. That is, God is as likely as all other things that have no evidence (Santa, Flying Spaghetti Monster, teapot orbiting Mars, etc). I don't see how that is a "faith" (i.e. a belief without evidence). - phookat


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
its also why we should all respect the beliefs of others
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should we respect the belief that Muslim suicide bombers go to paradise? How about the one that apostates and infidels should be murdered?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
keep religeon and government separate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with ya there.

One doctrine of the atheist religion is the belief that there is no God.  

Atheists do organize and associate with one another. - Gunthr

Originally posted by Gunthr
but its true, we clever humans cannot know what exists or what doesn't exist outside the very narrow confines of our human experience.

we can perhaps subjectively feel an inner yearning for a God, or we can perhaps feel an inner yearning for order so great that it rules out the possibillity of God or anything else we cannot directly sense...

or we can imagine, or guess at things outside our experience if we want to, but we cannot know.

it is like trying to imagine a new color unlike anything we have seen before. that is why atheism is just as much a faith or religion as is the belief in God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fail to see how your last statement follows from the others. Seems like a non-sequitur to me. Atheism is simply a philosophical position stating that there is no evidence for the existence of God. That is, God is as likely as all other things that have no evidence (Santa, Flying Spaghetti Monster, teapot orbiting Mars, etc). I don't see how that is a "faith" (i.e. a belief without evidence). - phookat

I can't help you if you fail to see how my last statement connects with what goes before it.  it is very simple.  we don't know what we don't know.

  i see that you enjoy using humorous improbabilities as examples of things that have no directly observable evidence that we can detect with our narrow range of human senses.  but i imagine that there are an infininite number of very serious examples of things that are real but have no directly observable evidence that we can detect. - Gunthr

[Gunthr]

phookat, sorry - i forgot to give my opinion on the issue of whether we should respect the beliefs of suicide bombers who believe that they will achieve 72 virgins in the afterlife if they kill infidels.

yes, i do respect their beliefs, even tho they are not my beliefs, and they have every right to them.  but i also believe that every human being has the right to protect themselves and the right to fight for survival.

in other words, i respect islamists right to their beliefs, but i will kill them if they try to kill me.  i hope that is clear.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Gunthr
One doctrine of the atheist religion is the belief that there is no God.

 No, actually, that's not a doctrine of atheism.  See my post above.

Originally posted by Gunthr
Atheists do organize and associate with one another.

You distrust people for talking to each other?  That's about all atheists do, and rarely enough at that (not enough of us out there anyway).  We got no churches, bro.  In any case, the act of congregating in a church is no reason to distrust someone.

Originally posted by Gunthr
I can't help you if you fail to see how my last statement connects with what goes before it.  it is very simple.  we don't know what we don't know.

And that has nothing to do with the validity of atheism.  Once again, atheism is the position that there is no evidence for the existence of God.  This is a falsifiable position, and is therefore not something that is unknowable.

Originally posted by Gunthr
but i imagine that there are an infininite number of very serious examples of things that are real but have no directly observable evidence that we can detect.

The key word there is "imagine".  Lots of people "imagine" that Elvis is still alive too.

Originally posted by Gunthr
i forgot to give my opinion on the issue of whether we should respect the beliefs of suicide bombers who believe that they will achieve 72 virgins in the afterlife if they kill infidels.

yes, i do respect their beliefs, and they have every right to them.  but i also believe that every human being has the right to protect themselves and the right to fight for survival.

in other words, i respect islamists right to their beliefs, but i will kill them if they try to kill me.  i hope that is clear.

That is a funny way of showing "respect".  If you are willing to kill them for holding that belief, then you are clearly not respecting them.  And FWIW, I agree...such beliefs should not be respected.  In fact, I think no belief should be untouchable.  All beliefs should be open to discussion and criticism.  Fortunately we live in a society where that is possible.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by AKIron
hehe, you do know what 2007 AD means right?

LMAO
somehow I think you get my point

[NateWolf]

I do not believe there is a god. I do not believe in the big bang. I do not have a theory on how the universe started. All I care is that it did start and that I am here right now to live in it. Although, it is pretty cool to think about it every once in a while and get that brain goin'

[Shuckins]

Phoocat, exactly WHAT parts of the animal kingdom exhibit morality?  No behavior that can be explained by meer instinct is sufficient to stand as an example.

My statement about the absence of a code of conduct for the animal kingdom was in response to marine's post which asked "Why, if there was a God, the animal kingdom exhibited such cruelty?"  Also, he asked if a male lion killed the young of a female in order to breed could he expect to be judged for his actions?  In response, I stated that no code of conduct or morality, such as those that humans impose upon themselves, or believe that God gave to them, could not work for the amoral world of nature.

I belive you missed that point entirely.

In addition, I also stated that mankind is the only species capable of understand morality and developing a concept of sin and a sense of wrong-doing.  That makes us unique.

I firmly believe that the rejection of belief in a higher moral authority will lead mankind down a slippery slope toward destruction.  Once the concept of final judgement and accountability is rejected, man can find arguments to justify almost any type of conduct.  Witness the fledgling movement to have the age of consent for children to engage in sex with adults to be lowered to fourteen.  Or the tendency of many to defend pornography as freedom of speech despite a growing body of evidence testifying to its detrimental effects on society.

Has there been evil done in the name of religion?  Certainly.  Would mankind be better off without it?  Definitely not.

And bye the way, all religions are NOT created equal.