Two massive car bombs found in London

[Hortlund]

Conversation so far.


Hortlund:
Blah blah blah and therefore there is a difference between christianity and islam

Viking:
You are a right wing extremist and nazi sympathizer.

Hortlund:
Why do you call me that? You are an idiot.

Viking:
How typical of you, you cant attack the argument so you attack the poster.

[Viking]

Again you're avoiding the argument. Badly this time.

[Hortlund]

WHAT ARGUMENT?

You havent presented any argument you ****ing imbecille. My posts state very clear what I am saying, and your posts does not counter my arguments at all...beside some juvenile "are too...just because I say so" crap. Now **** off.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Hortlund
WHAT ARGUMENT?

You havent presented any argument you ****ing imbecille.

For your convenience I will recap my arguments:

Originally posted by Viking
No, I’d say these guys are more deserving of that dubious honor:





And their handiwork looks like this:



The Kingsmill Massacre

The Altnaveigh Massacre

Enniskillen War Memorial Massacre

The Tullyvallen Massacre

Darkley Gospel Hall Massacre

Glennanne Ulster Defence Regiment Base

The Warrenpoint Massacre of soldiers from the Parachute Regiment

Bloody Friday in Belfast

The Dropping-Well Inn

The RUC station in Newry mortar bombed

Omagh bus bomb Massacre of British soldiers



Then there is the Bosnian Serbs and the Kosovo Serbs and we all know what those good Christians did:





Your point is taken though; that there are a LOT of Muslim fanatics. But contemporary Christianity is not devoid of monsters either.

Originally posted by Viking
Yes Hortlund, because the IRA has not been targeting and murdering Christian Protestants and the Serbs did not commit ethnic clenching against the Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians (Muslim)…

Originally posted by Viking
...No of course it is not at all religious motivation that make N.I. Catholics and Protestants murder each other, burn down each other’s homes, stone each other’s children on their way to school, murder each other’s clergy … no, clearly not religiously motivated acts of violence and terrorism. Lol, in the world of Hortlund.

Originally posted by Viking
...Never did I claim that the conflict was caused by religion (it was, but I never said so), only that there are contemporary Christian monsters that kill and terrorize for religious reasons. For the actual causes of the N.I. conflict read up on Elizabeth I and the English Church’s war on the Catholic rulers of Scotland, then carried over to Ireland by Henry VIII during the 16th century. That’s where the N.I. conflict started and it was a war, or rather several wars started by the Church of England and the Anglican monarch of England.

Originally posted by Hortlund
Now **** off.

Sorry. You’re not my type. Ask MiloMorai, I’m sure he’ll oblige.

[Hortlund]

INstead of repeating your already debunked arguments, perhaps you should try to come up with new ones?

This is very simple really. You say the IRA awere fighting a religious struggle.

And I say no, the conflict on northern ireland was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by the desire to reunite all of Ireland into one independent country...alternatively the desire to remain in the united kingdom.

The battle lines were drawn along the religious lines however, since the pro-british tend to be protestant, and the pro-irish tend to be catholic. But to say that the conflict was CAUSED by religion only displays a deep missunderstanding and/or outright ignorance.

It displays an equal amount of ignorance to say that the killings are motivated by religion.

To this you have not replied. Period.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by storch
I was there last in 2001 in the summer.  we were visiting with friends that live in auburn hills, a detroit suburb when I mentioned the arab population problem in my neighborhood he told me about dearborn.  I suggested he was exaggerating.  he drove us there, I couldn't believe my eyes.  I saw few blacks, no whites and mostly middle easterners.

what people left the region?  there was humanity everywhere.  

what struck me as odd was the amazing prosperity of some communities and the bleak poverty evident in others within such proximity.  you could be in a hellhole and literally five blocks away be in a much nicer section.  the north is a strange place.

we don't have that here.

You have arrogance and not much else storch.   I don't judge others, you do.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Hortlund
INstead of repeating your already debunked arguments, perhaps you should try to come up with new ones?

It is in fact your argument that an old guy with a sign is the worst fundamentalist Christian today that has been repeatedly debunked. My arguments stand on their own merit; yours otoh require wordplay, fallacies and crude juvenile language.

Originally posted by Hortlund
This is very simple really. You say the IRA awere fighting a religious struggle.

No I said that those two men I posted a picture of are worse fundamental Christians than your old guy with a sign. You on the other hand tried, and are still trying, to shift the focus of the debate towards something you might stand a chance winning.

Originally posted by Hortlund
But to say that the conflict was CAUSED by religion only displays a deep missunderstanding and/or outright ignorance.

It displays an equal amount of ignorance to say that the killings are motivated by religion.

To this you have not replied. Period.

Actually I have. That you don’t recognize it is not my fault.

Originally posted by Viking
Another lawyer move on your part; a straw man argument. Never did I claim that the conflict was caused by religion (it was, but I never said so), only that there are contemporary Christian monsters that kill and terrorize for religious reasons. For the actual causes of the N.I. conflict read up on Elizabeth I and the English Church’s war on the Catholic rulers of Scotland, then carried over to Ireland by Henry VIII during the 16th century. That’s where the N.I. conflict started and it was a war, or rather several wars started by the Church of England and the Anglican monarch of England.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Hortlund
You need to read up on what Islam says about violence...FFS seagoon even posted about it in this very thread.

The Spanish inquisition sure happened...400 years ago was it? Is that the best you can do? Slavery was legal 200 years ago in the US, does that mean that we should accept slavery in other parts of the world now? Your logic is so full of holes its not even fun.

No you are full of holes, the largest one being where your brain should be. Re-read what I wrote and this time take time to try to actually understand it.

[Hortlund]

It is in fact your argument that an old guy with a sign is the worst fundamentalist Christian today that has been repeatedly debunked.

Not really. Your opinion amounts to exactly jack **** in this discussion since you clearly dont have a ****ing clue. If you do any sort of poll among any sort of people and ask whos a fundie christian, I dont think anyone will answer "serbs" or "IRA"...you, however do.  

My arguments stand on their own merit; yours otoh require wordplay, fallacies and crude juvenile language.

You dont have any arguments. Your examples of religiously motivated killings are in reality examples of something else entirely...nationalistic motivated killings.

there are contemporary Christian monsters that kill and terrorize for religious reasons.

Who? Serbs kill and terrorize for nationalistic reasons. IRA kill and terrorize for nationalistic reasons. Who are these mythical christians you are referring to?

[john9001]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
No you are full of holes, the largest one being where your brain should be.  

mr ripley is making another personal attack.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Not really. Your opinion amounts to exactly jack **** in this discussion since you clearly dont have a ****ing clue. If you do any sort of poll among any sort of people and ask whos a fundie christian, I dont think anyone will answer "serbs" or "IRA"...you, however do.  

I think a lot of Britons would point towards Northern Ireland if asked that question, and I know quite a few Bosnian Muslims who would point to the Serbs. Or I should say “knew” since it has been a while since I was “in country”. If you ask the Americans I would wager some of them would point to the Christian “Army of God” fundamentalists who bomb abortion clinics, but then again the Americans never were much interested in European affairs. If you ask the Indians many would point to the National Liberation Front of Tripura, a fundamentalist Christian militant group in India. Ask the Ugandans and some would point to the Lord's Resistance Army.

Originally posted by Hortlund
You dont have any arguments. Your examples of religiously motivated killings are in reality examples of something else entirely...nationalistic motivated killings. Who? Serbs kill and terrorize for nationalistic reasons. IRA kill and terrorize for nationalistic reasons. Who are these mythical christians you are referring to?

The conflict in Northern Ireland is not the result on any one factor, but a multitude of factors. Nationalism is certainly one of them, and so is religion. My opinions do not stand alone:

Gary Easthope
University of East Anglia

Conflict in Northern Ireland in August 1969 is seen as a consequence of the type and patterning of social relationships in that society. Social relations are personal and patterned primarily by the categories of Protestant and Catholic which are ascribed at birth. This patterning results in communities of Catholics and communities of Protestants. These communities form `congregations' in the `churches' of Republicanism and Loyalism respectively. Conflict between communities has two effects. First, it serves to clearly delineate the physical, social, and symbolic boundaries between communities. Second, it creates conditions conducive to the growth of `political sects' based on the `congregations' which may conflict with each other, sometimes violently, even though they belong to the same `church'.


The Longest War: Northern Ireland's Troubled History
by Marc Mulholland (Author) "Why have divisions dating from the Reformation of the sixteenth century and the plantations and religious wars of the seventeenth century persisted through Enlightenment, revolution,..."

"The Northern Ireland conflict is a religious conflict. Economic and social considerations are also crucial, but it was the fact that the competing populations in Ireland adhered and still adhere to competing religious traditions which has given the conflict its enduring and intractable quality"   Steve Bruce: God Save Ulster, Oxford, 1986, p24

"Politics in the North is not politics exploiting religion. That is far too simple an explanation: it is one which trips readily off the tongue of commentators who are used to a cultural style in which the politically pragmatic is the normal way of conducting affairs and all other considerations are put to its use. In the case of Northern Ireland the relationship is much more complex. It is more a question of religion inspiring politics titan of politics making use of religion.

It is a situation more akin to the first half of seventeenth ‑century England than to the last quarter of twentieth century

Britain" ‑ John Hickey: Religion and the Northern Ireland Problem, Gill and Macmillan, 1984, p67


"The ancient quarrel is, of course, about power, and about its economic base as well as about its political manifestations. But such clichés can hardly satisfy us. If we ask further what are the ends for which the possession of power is coveted, we may perhaps come closer to the truth about Ulster. In that small and beautiful region different cultures have collided because each has a view of life which it deems to be threatened by its opponents and power is the means by which a particular view of life can be maintained against all rivals. These views of life are founded upon religion because this is a region where religion is still considered as a vital determinant of everything important in the human condition. And religion is vital because there have been in conflict three (latterly) two deeply conservative, strongly opinionated communities each of whose Churches still expresses what the members of these Churches believe to be the truth" F.S.L. Lyons: Culture and Anarchy in Ireland, 1984, p144

"If the characteristic mark of a healthy Christianity be to unite its members by a bond of fraternity and love, then there is no country where Christianity has more completely failed than Ireland” W.E.H. Lecky

[wooley]

The conflict in Northern Ireland is absolutely one of religion. Anyone who says otherwise has clearly never been there or even to the west coast of Scotland. Sure, the IRA was fighting for a united Ireland, but why was it divided in the first place? If you're ever with two people from the North, watch and see how long it takes them to ask each other which school they went to...All the divides are along religious lines.

That said, I think all we've shown with this thread is the power of religion - any religion - to cause division, arguement and conflict. I don't know why we're so surprised that doctors got involved in the latest attacks. You only need to see the number of professional educated people on either side of an Old Firm football match at Celtic Park or Ibrox spouting pure hatred at each other to realize religion's power to poison people's minds.

[bj229r]

Right then. If any of the 4 odd-million people from Ireland want to get on the plane with me, have THEM get in the other line with the 3 BILLION Muslims who are trying to blow everything up:aok

[Mr No Name]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]

SNIP

Oh yeah, the Spanish inquisition never happened. Our christian hands are clean.

SNIP
 

That wasn't run by all Christians, just by the Catholic Church.  It was some 500 or 600 years ago, wasn't it?

The Radical Islamists are feeding a revolutionary movement.  They are willing to Kill and die to promote that cause.  We are not giving them the rapid opportunity to die that we should be.  We should be at least as brutal or even more brutal because apparently it is all they understand or respect.

I think we need to quit fighting this war they have been waging on us since 1979 with the "PC Gloves" on.  I am tired of losing American and British lives needlessly.  We have the weapons that would decimate their numbers significantly and quickly.  When Insurgents or terrorists are using a neighborhood to hide or supply themselves and the residents dont report them, flatten it like a parking lot.  Sooner or later the other neighborhoods will catch on.  If they are crossing borders and we know where they are like the Vietnamese did in Cambodia, flatten their safe havens, wherever they may be.

Like Richard Nixon Said: "It's Time To **** Or Get Off The Pot."  Since the radicals aren't going to cease their war with us, getting off the pot won't end it, so we must kill every damned one of them possible.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Mr No Name
That wasn't run by all Christians, just by the Catholic Church.  It was some 500 or 600 years ago, wasn't it?

The point is that Christianism is no different from Islam when it comes to doing attrocities in the name of the religion of choice. Doesn't matter if we were psychotic idiots 400 years ago (well, some are even today) now the Islam supporters are.

I agree with the PC thing. PC will eventually kill us if we listen to the PC idiots and don't start to treat them like they treat us. Every Islamic background person should be either monitored or preferably sent to some country that has sharia active.