Two massive car bombs found in London

[john9001]

Dowding wishes for "peace in our time", how British of you old boy.

[Maverick]

I would say that we've already seen some of the muslim "discussion". I believe some of it is broadcast on al jazeera. It does seem to be one sided in the discussion. Once the allah akbars start and the knife is used as a point before the opposing side is allowed to speak there doesn't seem to be a differing view. I suppose I will be branded as a "reactionary" since I use this as an analogy as well.

[AKH]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf

"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933

"The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie."

Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

"As Fuehrer of the German people and Chancellor of the Reich, I can thank God at this moment that he has so wonderfully blessed us in our hard struggle for what is our right, and beg Him that we and all other nations may find the right way, so that not only the German people but all Europe may once more be granted the blessing of peace."

Adolf Hitler, before the Reichstag, 06 Oct. 1939

"But he who dares to use the word "God" for such devilish activity blasphemes against Providence and, according to our belief, he cannot end except in destruction."

Adolf Hitler, speaking about Jews and international "warmongers," on 04 May 1941, before the Reichstag

So much for that analogy...

[AKIron]

I've seen guys living under bridges claiming to be Jesus. Hitler claiming he was following him didn't make it so. A comparison of Mohammad's vs Jesus' teachings might be interesting.

[AKH]

Teachings are one thing, practice another.

Was Martin Luther a Christian?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKH
Teachings are one thing, practice another.

Was Martin Luther a Christian?

Perhaps in the case of Mohammad he didn't practice all of his teachings, we could examine that. I know enough about Jesus' teachings to know you can't say he didn't walk his talk. Yes, Martin Luther claimed to be a follower of Christ though I couldn't quote him offhandedly.

[AKH]

Luther's theology challenged the authority of the papacy by emphasizing the Bible as the sole source of religious authority and the church as a priesthood of all believers. According to Luther, salvation was attainable only by faith in Jesus as the messiah, a faith unmediated by the church. These ideas helped to inspire the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.

The man who instigated the Protestant Reformation and you can only manage a "claimed to be a follower of Christ?"  Is this in the same sense that guys living under bridges claim to be Jesus or that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, or that Seagoon claims to be a Christian?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKH
The man who instigated the Protestant Reformation and you can only manage a "claimed to be a follower of Christ?"  Is this in the same sense that guys living under bridges claim to be Jesus or that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, or that Seagoon claims to be a Christian?

I'm a lowly IT tech who has had a couple of Margaritas tonight. If I knew more specifically what you would have from me I would gladly oblige.

[AKH]

Well, I was after a simple yes or no answer, but I can understand your reticence to commit either way.

If you had to bullet-point the main teachings of Christianity, what would they be?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKH
Well, I was after a simple yes or no answer, but I can understand your reticence to commit either way.

If you had to bullet-point the main teachings of Christianity, what would they be?

Yes, Martin Luther was definitely a christian.

Bullet points:

-All of mankind has the nature of sin
-Sin will not be allowed to exist in the presence of God
-God desired for us (you and I) to have communion with him
-God made a way, through Christ, for us to exist with him eternally

Pretty much it in my understanding

[Seagoon]

Hi All,

I'm not sure if the situation is more funny or sad. Middle-class British Muslims attempt to blow up Nightclubs and an Airport in Britain, and as I expected when the religious motivations of the would be bombers are mentioned, the British AH2 BB members respond by defending Islam and attacking Christianity. Good thing you lads aren't distracted by all this Muslim bombing nonsense and are still able to identify the real threat. Namely the hordes of secret British evangelicals just waiting to tie you up and force you to suffer through an entire Christian Rock concert complete with overweight flag dancers.

It's also disappointing, but not really surprising that neither Hoopy nor Dowding bothered to deal with the Social issues I mentioned.  

Anyway, regarding the Hitler was a Christian too, so there! argument, here we go again, to quote an earlier thread:

Hitler was not a Christian, philosophically, like most Nazis of the period he was a Nietzschian. For those of you not familiar with the 19th century German philosopher, here is a brief synopsis of his life and thought regarding Christianity written by Simon Kistemaker:

"Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, born in 1844, belonged to a family of preachers. His father was a minister of the gospel and so were numerous ancestors of his mother. Studying theology, he developed a deep aversion to the Christian faith. He portrayed Jesus as a weakling who shamefully died on a cross in utter failure. Nietzsche despised not only Jesus but also all who believe Christ's gospel. According to Nietzsche, Christians favor suffering, scorn riches and learning, and prefer the weak to the strong. For him, God was dead and Jesus a fool."

Hitler and the Nazis therefore saw Christianity as a weak and foolish religion that stood in the way of the strong dominating the weak. But Hitler realized that most Germans (though overwhelmingly theologically liberal - i.e. anti-supernaturalists) still had an attachment to the church. Therefore the Nazis made concerted efforts were made to co-opt and "Nazify" the churches in Germany and work towards the day when National Socialism and Aryanism would replace all other ideologies. In the "Nazi" church, nationalism and Aryanism became the central creeds, and Christ was in effect replaced by Hitler. An example of this would be the famous quote from Nazi church leader, Pastor Julius Leutheuser: "Christ has come to us through Adolf Hitler... We know today the Saviour has come... We have only one task, be German, not be Christian."

Eerdman's Handbook of Church History gives a good synopsis of this period and makes clear that Hitler cyncically first used the church for his own ends, and then worked to eliminate it entirely -

"The plight of Christians under the Nazi regime was also precarious. Born and reared a Catholic, Hitler abandoned whatever Christian principles he had in favour of the secular philosophies of the day. But he never formally cut his ties with the church, nor was he excommunicated. National Socialism itself was a new faith which appealed to the millions of Germans who longed for national regeneration. Hitler's hatred for the church was primarily political; he envied the power Catholicism had over its adherents, and despised Protestantism for its lack of unity and of authority. However, he courted both Protestant and Catholic support during his rise to power by emphasizing the nationalist aspects of his programme, and by claiming to support the church's position in the state.
    ...
    Hitler's policy toward the churches after January 1933 was purely pragmatic. He realized the power they possessed, and did not want to initiate another Kultur-kampf. But he assumed that, in time, the outdated Christian faith would die out. The Catholic bishops endorsed the new regime. The Catholic Centre Party voted for the measure which allowed Hitler to rule by decree, and the Centre and Catholic trade unions 'voluntarily' dissolved themselves.

    In return the Fuhrer agreed to a concordat with the Vatican... The concordat greatly increased the prestige of Hitler's regime. By it the church sanctioned the liquidation of the religious (confessional) political parties, and the barring of the clergy from politics. It formed a milestone in the consolidation of the totalitarian state. Many churchmen feared that open conflict with the regime might jeopardize those privileges still protected by the agreement. The Nazis violated the concordat almost from the very beginning; it gave no protection against attacks, and at the same time it undermined the developing Catholic resistance.

    A movement swept the Protestant church in 1933 calling for 're-unification and 'nationalization' of the twenty-eight provincial churches (Landeskirchern) with a single "Reich-Bishop" at its head. This seemed in line with Hitler's policy of bringing all groups under the total control of the Fuhrer and the state. The "German Christians" secured the election of Ludwig Muller, a fervent Nazi. They also restructured the church along Nazi lines, by introducing the Fuhrer principle into church government and adopting the 'Aryan paragraph' which provided for dismissal of all people of Jewish origin from church staffs.

    Hitler, however, took little notice of these steps, and rejected the 'German Christians' idea of a National Socialist state church. He felt that the church's sole function was to cater for benighted [benighted: intellectually unenlightened] people who still had religious needs. Any church, even a Nazified one, threatened to divide loyalties; he would tolerate no such limitations to his power.

    Hitler listened increasingly to anti-Christian Nazis who called for the elimination of both the 'German Christians' and their opponents in the church. After 1934 Nazi support for the 'German Christians' waned, although many continued to occupy church posts. They became even more extreme in their claims that the Nazi movement represented the true fulfilment of Christianity, but they found that Nazi favour could be gained only by a wholehearted commitment to its racial ideas and the exaltation of the Fuhrer. With the creation of the Ministry of Church Affairs in 1935, under Hanns Kerrl, they and the Reich-bishop were put on one side.

    The increasing encroachment of the Nazi state on religious matters alarmed many Protestants and Catholics, and what followed was the well-known Kirchen-kampf (church-struggle). In September 1933 Dr Martin Niemoller formed a Pastor's Emergency League to combat 'German Christian' ideas. In the following year his group repudiated Muller and set up an alternative church government structure known as the Confessing Church. Its theological basis was spelled out in the Barmen Declaration of May 1934. ... the Declaration called the German church back to the central truths of Christianity and rejected the totalitarian claims of the state in religious and political matters.
    ...
    Harassed by the Gestapo and repudiated by most Protestant leaders, the Confessing Church led a perilous existence. Its very presence was an embarrassment to the Nazis and its witness to Christ's Lordship over the world implicitly challenged Hitler's totalitarianism."

    [Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity p.578]

Several members of the Confessing Church movement ended up in concentration camps, and a few like Bohoeffer were active in the anti-Hitler resistance.

It's important to note that the resistance to the claims of Hitler and the Nazis on the allegiance of Christians came from the sectors of the church that actually believed the bible and considered the claims of Christ to be paramount. In other words it was by-and-large the evangelicals who resisted. A fact that is born out by the fact that the signers of the Barmen Declaration Available online here self-consciously identified themselves as evangelicals. The churches that were most easily co-opted and controlled by the Nazis were those which had dismissed the truth claims of the bible and thought Christianity was just another source of morals and national pride.

Hitler believed that he was the savior of the German people, and dismissed all other claimants to that title including of course, Jesus.

- SEAGOON

[AKH]

What about love?

When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said,"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." (Matthew 22:37) He then added that the second most important law was "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Jesus said that the entire law was dependent upon these two commandments.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKH
What about love?

When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said,"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." (Matthew 22:37) He then added that the second most important law was "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Jesus said that the entire law was dependent upon these two commandments.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

"Love is all you need."

Beetles plagiarizing God.

[AKH]

So Seagoon - was Martin Luther a Christian?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKH
So Seagoon - was Martin Luther a Christian?  A simple yes or no will suffice.

Sounds like you have something up yer sleeve H? Martin Luther was but a man and no man is perfect but Christ.