Engagement in AvA vs. the MA

[toonces3]

Hey all,
I have a question about how you approach the fight in the AvA vs the MA.  

I realize that scores mean nothing, but I would still prefer to kill more bad guys than the number of times I get killed.  Having said that, I've been throwing myself into any fight in the AvA, sort of the 'I can always get a new cartoon plane' train of thought, and it's getting me killed ALOT.

I think there are two factors:

1.  I'm flying planes that I have either no previous stick time in, or I'm not comfortable in- they don't suit my 'style' of fighting.  I'm adapting poorly.

2.  I'm not engaging smart.

With respect to number 1, heck, that's part of the reason I fly AvA- to try out new rides.  I'm not going to fly a zero in MA, I don't care for the plane, but it's fun to fly it in the restricted environment of the AvA.  So, I certainly need to work on that part, but I don't think it's the whole problem.

With respect to number 2, I think this is the major problem, and the one I'd like to hear your thoughts on.  In the MA, I tend to a) get to a decent altitude before the fight if I can- 10k to 12k at least, and b) I don't dive on the first target as soon as I see it, but rather look for opportunities where I'm no less than co-E for the most part.  

In the AvA, I'm finding myself engaging typically much lower, usually 6k? or less, and I'm diving right in, or engaging whoever's there in whatever E state we are in.  

Yesterday really highlighted this for me.  I upped a F4UD off the CV and met a zero co alt or I was slightly low, and I was only at about 200 mph because I was still climbing.  Normally, I would have merged, dove out, extended to a couple miles, got some alt and speed and then BnZ'd this guy till he was dead.  I'm not very good in the Hog, and I definately don't feel good turn fighting it with flaps, especially against a zero.  But with the zero's compression, I could dictate the fight all day if I wanted to.  

Instead, I turned back at 1.0 with lower E because I didn't want the guy to be bored to death chasing me since it was just the two of us.  And, I figured I could see what the F4UD could do turning and slow fighting with the zero.  So of course the guy eventually shot me down.  

This type of scenario isn't atypical lately in AvA for me and I'm wondering if you guys approach the AvA engagement from a 'might as well mix it up' attitude, or if you fight it smart, from an advantage (or at least not a disadvantage) before engaging.

Thanks
Toonces

[toonces3]

Just to be clear, I'm NOT suggesting that I'm only getting beat because I'm flying at a disadvantage.

I got shot down 3 times (at least) by someone (forgot name) in a hurricane, using .303's, after engaging from a position of advantage last Thursday night.  Those kills I can understand- I just got beat.  

I'm more just wondering about engagement attitude in the AvA vs. the MA.

[RTR]

Well Toonces, going co-E at 200 mph and under against a zeke is nothing short of suicide. Use the F4U's strengths.

There is nothing wrong with extending and getting some steam up. I think that all of the AVA regulars shouldn't have any issue with that.

I haven't been around much the last few months (work is pretty busy), but I can tell you that if I'm flying a Zeke, and a Hog driver keeps coming at me co-e and alt, I get tired of killing him. It ain't that enjoyable after the first couple.

So, I would say.....go ahead and extend, maybe grab a bit of alt while you are at it.

As for the rules of etiquette in the AVA.....HO's are generally bad form, respect the 1VS1 if asked to stay out, don't wear TK's red dress without permission or Storch's leiderhosen for that matter, don't swing your purse around in public and have some fun dammit!

RTR

[Dichotomy]

you left out don't drink dicho's beer

[Larry]

Originally posted by RTR
don't wear TK's red dress without permission
RTR

BLACK LEATHER THONG!!!

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by toonces3
Instead, I turned back at 1.0 with lower E because I didn't want the guy to be bored to death chasing me since it was just the two of us.  And, I figured I could see what the F4UD could do turning and slow fighting with the zero.  So of course the guy eventually shot me down.  

And so, you learned something about the Corsair's usefulness in fighting a Zeke.  Worth a try, wasn't it?

Nothing at all wrong with flying to your plane's strengths.  In your example, I'd have thought the zeke would turn away to let you gain some altitude.  Since he didn't, you could have continued on your way until you did.

Most of the AvA folks enjoy a good fight, not an easy kill.  The other side of that coin is that not many people admire someone who "flys smart" by hanging out near the tropopause and picking those who are already engaged with someone else.

- oldman

[toonces3]

Thanks for the inputs all.

Well tonight pretty much put to bed any questions I had.

Most of the folks in AvA are better than me.  I got handily beat repeatedly tonight.  I even climbed to a position of advantage and got shot down fairly easily in a Hog.  

I'm over my head in AvA.

[toonces3]

I don't really know how else to explain it.

I go into AvA tonight and I get shot down by:

1Duke1 in a Hog, where'd he come from?  Not sure but I couldn't shake him.

ShaunBN or something like that in an F6F.  

Bison in a Hog.  What's worse, I was at like 12k prior to fight on.

I logged at this point, went into the furball in LW MA and landed an assist, then 1 kill 1 assist, then 2 kills in a spit 16 in about an hour.

In fact I got an assist on AckAck in Midwar that should have been a kill, but my squad mate was above me, didn't see me, and blew him up while I was landing my hits.  AckAck is no slouch.  I think I might have landed a kill or two in mid-war right before going into AvA.

So, ultimately, I'm not sure what the dealy-o is.  I know Dedalos is going to poo all over me but I don't know if I'm just better in the Spit 16; or totally outclassed in the AvA, or fly better with a squad mate looking over my 6.

[Slash27]

All of the beatings your a taking will pay off if you are understanding why you died. I wouldn't say you are over your head in the AvA, you are just in an enviroment with a higher concentration of good players.


If you like I'll fly with you or we can go to the TA and I'll see if I can help with a few things.

[toonces3]

Thank you for the offer.

I have a great squad with some lethal sticks, who have offered to go to TA with me.

I'm going to stick with these guys for now, but again, thank you for the offer.  

Eventually I hope to get these guys into AvA.  It'll be interesting to see how having a wingman helps with someone like 1Duke1 who pwned me twice tonight.  I mean, seriously, I had him at D600 in my Hog and he still reversed me somehow.  Fortunately I had the sense to extend and managed to dodge his bullets long enough to get out of range, but it was still humiliating to not kill his stalking butt dead.  

[FiLtH]

I agree with Slash. Take your beatings, but figure out why it didnt work.

  Once you get so you know by looking at the range and separation rate if an enemy has enough E on you or not, it opens up alot of options.

[Soulyss]

Take advantage of the smaller numbers in the AvA and the relatively more tight knit community.  If someone beats you take a minute and ask them how they did it.  I'll bet more often than not you'll get a polite explanation.  

One of the great things about the AvA is that it is a great learning environment.  Because it forces you out of your comfort zone, which is often times the best way to learn.  BnZ-ing in the MA in a P-51 isn't the best way to learn how to dogfight (not implying that this is what you do).  But if you can come in with alt every time and disengage @ will you're not really learning how to duke it out with someone.  I know because this is what I spent my first months of AH doing way back when.  One day I let this dweeb Mathman talk me into trying the F6F, and in the next couple months I learned more about ACM and dogfighting than I had in over a year flying the P-51 because suddenly I couldn't run away.. I had to stay and fight it out.  

Learning is often times about being uncomfortable.  So stop in and fly something different and get yourself shot down, but it goes a long way towards combating the frustration of "losing" if you can make the loss constructive in some fashion.

[Grits]

You have the right attitude Toonces which is 95% of the battle, now you just need to get some time in different planes and different situations. Fly as many different planes as you can and it will help you be better in your favorite ride. One thing to remember is if you are lower than your opponent try to stay slower no matter what plane you are in. The higher the speed differential the harder it is for a BnZ plane to make a shot without REALLY slowing down also. That is what I suspect Duke did, he was much slower and was able to easily roll out of the way as you came by and then get a shot as you left. Once you learn that being lower and slower can be used as an advantage against a higher opponent you will never be afraid of that situation again. You may have to die a thousand times before you get it nailed down but once you do you will fly anything anywhere at any alt and LOOK for higher cons, not run from them.

Just keep at it, it may get frustrating at times but it is going to pay off. I also agree with others that said if you get pwnt by someone ask them what happened and I'd bet $100 most AvA regulars would stop and tell you.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Soulyss
One of the great things about the AvA is that it is a great learning environment.  

Agreed.  Wholeheartedly.

Three big reasons for this:  Lower numbers, so you're more likely to actually have a fight where you know what's going on (and not get suddenly popped by someone named 3ER67902); good quality opponents who are almost always happy to share their views of your fight, and of fighting in general, with you, instead of calling you a cheating hacker; and a mandatory wide variety of planes to fly, which will force you to focus on ACM instead of permitting you to nuzzle into the comfort of a familiar plane.

Don't stay away, Toonces.  This is a great way to learn.

- oldman

[Dichotomy]

Agreed with all of the above Toonces.  If I'm not on a squad night or an event I much prefer the AVA to the MA for all of the aforementioned reasons.  Stick around.  Eventually you'll run up against me and log a kill