Author Topic: As per your request....  (Read 1246 times)

Offline humble

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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2007, 11:07:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
:rofl wtg and brilliant A20 work sir.


TY sir...

you know it s funny, for all the $#!^ that you and I have thrown back and forth over the years on those occasions we actually "cross props" both the action and the conduct are of high quality. With alot of the "newer" players we seem to get more "quakelike" play and more mouth thats derogatory (and as you see here outright wrong). He actually accused me repeatedly of being a liar. People comment all the time about the relative quality of the game play and pilot quality....but the "smack" quality has suffered even more.

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Offline toonces3

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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2007, 11:17:37 AM »
Nice flying Humble.

Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.

Thanks for posting though, that was good flying, and you're lucky the P-51 guy's gunnery sucks.  I was thinking that that must have been me flying the Pony, as I was sure I was the only one that was that bad in the P-51.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2007, 11:33:04 AM »
It's funny but the A-20 is suprisingly hard to hit and it absorbs an awful lot of punishment. Cobia38 is pretty much the "gold standard" for A-20 driving and he'd frustrate me to no end till I stopped viewing it as a "target" and treated it like a fighter. From my perspective the pony never had any shot solution....

The A-20 depends alot on relative E state and AoA for defense...basically it cant ever be flown as either s true B&Z on offesnse or true "angles" on defense. It's views are remarkably good for a "bomber" so you can get a pretty good feel for the "other" guy position wise. I posted this clip to the TA section of the BBS but it really shows how well the A-20 can "defend" against certain planes. Basically the A-20 is inferior to everything...but situationally superior to just about everything. Hog and spitty are toughest matchups....anyway this will give you a better feel for "guns defense" in an A-20. The only damage the A-20 took was from a front quarter shot that I felt it better to eat then create additional problems by avoiding it (if I even could)....

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Offline humble

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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2007, 11:34:29 AM »
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Originally posted by toonces3
Nice flying Humble.

Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.

Thanks for posting though, that was good flying, and you're lucky the P-51 guy's gunnery sucks.  I was thinking that that must have been me flying the Pony, as I was sure I was the only one that was that bad in the P-51.


We went back and forth on 200 for 5 minutes...

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Offline Kermit de frog

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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 11:41:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
One of the funniest complaints is the "you HO'd me" crap.  It is a fundamental tenant of ACM to neutralize your opponent.  It is a very basic thought and ALL FIGHTER PILOTS LEARN IT, as a matter of fact it's probably one of the first things you learn.  You may as well complain when someone lead turns you, pulls lead, or maintains his e.  These are all fundamentals in ACM.

If you're defensive either by angles or numbers (4 to 1 for instance) the very first thing you want to do is take away any angles the high-threat bandit presents and eliminate his ability to gain them back through an early turn.  You do this by taking him 180 degrees out (i.e., nose to nose) as close to his flightpath as possible (this takes away any turning room he has for a lead turn).  Successfully done, this takes away all of his angles and you both end up with 180 degrees to go, i.e., neutral.  If you're good at it you can actually threaten him (i.e., the HO) and potentially gain a lead turn (same as early turn) to gain angles on him.  If you do not at least attempt to neutralize him by going 180 out then you are an idiot.

Now, on the other hand, there are those that don't even try to fight tactically.  They don't even try to maneuver...just put their nose on a bandit and hold the trigger down.  While this could be justified when you're outnumbered and absolutely have to cut into their numbers there are those who only do this regardless of the tactical situation.

After looking at your film I'd say a couple of things.  First, there was not a single HO although there were several low-angle-off forward quarter deflection shots.  Second, you did an outstanding job of maintaining your SA and neutralizing the high threat bandit and/or presenting him with other considerations (i.e., your wingmen and Ack).  All of this is sound tactical doctrine and represents exactly what you would do in a RL situation....except I doubt you'd try this in an A-20.  My last observation is you need to work on your gunnery.  You missed three or four really good opportunities to eliminate a bandit.  This is just an observation and not meant as a personal slam at all...I've been needing to go back to basic gunnery school also as I've been missing alot of the same types of opportunities and need to "re-fix" my sight picture.



Wow, you are an AH Trainer?:huh

If I bounce a low con and they go nose up into me, I immediately go vert and might either to a flat turn if the enemy is low on E or do a spiral climb if the enemy has lots of E.  I believe that the lower con feels that he has the right to ho, which is not the thinking a trainer should be spreading.  Let the trainee decide that.  When someone bounces me, I do not go nose up to HO them, I will defeat them with ACM using a simple overshoot.  

Fighting for me isn't taking these ho shots, or "high frontal" deflection shots either.  Personal choice I've made tells me a fight means I get a solution behind his 3-9 line.  These ideas would be healty to spread by the AH Trainers.

I never have to hear anyone tell me "hey man, nice ho".  Same type of flying also allows me to not hear "nice vulch, nice ack hugging, stick stirring, gang banging, nice running from a fight".

The golden rule seems to apply to AH as well.  It'll affect yourself and also ALL of the AH community.  This I believe should be taught by you Mace, since you have the power to improve the community, one individual at a time.
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Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 11:51:28 AM »
Even from the ponies POV, there was only one merge that was close to HO, certainly didn't see the other 14. On top of that, the spit spent most of his time circling looking for a "freebi", he just wasn't close enough to ANYONE else to be HOed.

Just poor ACM, to set up a good whine.

Nice flying Snappy

Offline humble

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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 11:56:51 AM »
The 3,9 line exists in 3 demensions....not 2. I've heard seen this garbage from you all to often. There is not a "simple" overshoot since the overshoot is enemy dependent. As a former trainer your goal is to make the "trainee" reasonably competent. That includes proper ACM....which doesnt automatically reject any shot solution. If the other guy manuevers in such a way that he presents a legitmate solution you take it. Now the flip side is falling for a seemingly decent shot that suckers you into giving up superior position or that forces you away from your strengths (and/or your planes). Mace (and all the trainers) do a great service...dont make there job harder with some arcane interpretation of "your" rules..

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storch

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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2007, 11:57:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
TY sir...

you know it s funny, for all the $#!^ that you and I have thrown back and forth over the years on those occasions we actually "cross props" both the action and the conduct are of high quality. With alot of the "newer" players we seem to get more "quakelike" play and more mouth thats derogatory (and as you see here outright wrong). He actually accused me repeatedly of being a liar. People comment all the time about the relative quality of the game play and pilot quality....but the "smack" quality has suffered even more.
yes the truly gifted smackers have departed and sadly we're stuck with....me. :D

Offline humble

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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2007, 11:58:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Max
The film speaks for itself; no HO. Nice A20 flyen btw. What convergence did you have those 50's set at?



Think i've got em at 400 (could be 300). Since they're right on the nose I'm not sure how much it matters.

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Offline Yknurd

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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2007, 12:08:04 PM »
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Originally posted by humble
It's funny but the A-20 is suprisingly hard to hit and it absorbs an awful lot of punishment. Cobia38 is pretty much the "gold standard" for A-20 driving and he'd frustrate me to no end till I stopped viewing it as a "target" and treated it like a fighter. From my perspective the pony never had any shot solution....


I have flown against Cobia38 in the EW or MW arena (I don't remember which although I believe it was the EW arena).

He easily out maneuvered me in his A-20 while I flew the F4F.  The F4F is a remarkably agile plane but he was simply better than me in his A-20.

Another person from the EW, although I think he flies LW too, was named something like Widewing.  I know it's not Widewing I know who he is but this guys name was similar.  But this guy flew the F4F like it was on rails.  I consider myself a decent pilot in the F4F but this guy practically never let me have a guns solution on him.  And I started out with a slight alt advantage once.

Amazing.

to both Cobia38 and the unknown.
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Offline Atoon

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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2007, 12:22:14 PM »
"OH OH OH-     Who's that kid with the Oreo cookie? They forever go together it's a classic combination, when two dark delicious cookies meet the creamy smooth sensation, it's the one and only creamy-crunchy-chocolate O-r-e-O"    "They keep yer milk from gettin lonely"

I couldn't help myself-:cool:
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Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2007, 12:30:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Atoon
"OH OH OH-     Who's that kid with the Oreo cookie? They forever go together it's a classic combination, when two dark delicious cookies meet the creamy smooth sensation, it's the one and only creamy-crunchy-chocolate O-r-e-O"    "They keep yer milk from gettin lonely"

I couldn't help myself-:cool:


....I think you should have tried harder  :cool:

Offline MajWoody

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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2007, 12:32:39 PM »
Nice flying Humble,
Not even close to a ho. Don't worry about what any of the oTARDSo have to say. Funny that guy didn't pm you on vox & :cry :cry :cry :cry
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
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Offline Kermit de frog

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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2007, 12:37:28 PM »
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Originally posted by humble
The 3,9 line exists in 3 demensions....not 2. I've heard seen this garbage from you all to often. There is not a "simple" overshoot since the overshoot is enemy dependent. As a former trainer your goal is to make the "trainee" reasonably competent. That includes proper ACM....which doesnt automatically reject any shot solution. If the other guy manuevers in such a way that he presents a legitmate solution you take it. Now the flip side is falling for a seemingly decent shot that suckers you into giving up superior position or that forces you away from your strengths (and/or your planes). Mace (and all the trainers) do a great service...dont make there job harder with some arcane interpretation of "your" rules..




Humble, calm down & relax.  3,9 exists in 3 not 2?  I didn't realize I said or implied 2 demensions.  Garbage?  An overshoot works fine.  If the enemy likes to saddle up(and not take high deflec shots), he will have to slow down, then you can then go into a scissor move and wow, now you both are actually fighting each other win/lose/draw, both are having fun.  How am I making their job harder by telling them to try to help improve the community?  
What if senario:
If they taught everyone to vulch and avoid 1v1s, do you think they are doing their job correctly?  Even zebras have color.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2007, 12:58:03 PM »
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Originally posted by toonces3


Agreed with above posters- Adonai wasn't referring to you with the '15 HO's' comment.

 



Yes, oADONAIo was referring to snaphook when he was crying about a HO.  He went on a long tirade about how snaphook should visit the TA, learn how to fly, get better looking sheep, etc.


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