Author Topic: "A War We Just Might Win"  (Read 2597 times)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2007, 09:44:26 AM »
I don't want socialism. Never did. I'm a card carrying member of the most right-wing mainstream political party in Norway: The Progress Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Norway)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 09:49:48 AM by Viking »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2007, 09:45:43 AM »
I don't know much about it.. do you have a link that is in english?

lazs

Offline Viking

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« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2007, 09:49:09 AM »
Just edited my previous post, but you could have Googled it (like I just did).

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2007, 10:08:18 AM »
well... I just figured that you being a member and all would have a site I could look at that was a little more.. ah... fair... than wikie.  a little more meat to it.

I like the description so far tho... wiki hates you so you can't be too bad.. they use "right wing"  (one of their favorite terms) to describe a party that wants less taxes and more individual rights but don't explain what the awful right wing stance is?   More controlled immigration?  that doesn't seem too bad.... perhaps you guys want to build ovens to put the illegals in?

They also say that you guys want better relations with the US and Israel...  Horror of horrors!!!!  that is maybe the "right wing" they get so excited about?

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Offline Viking

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« Reply #109 on: August 03, 2007, 10:15:45 AM »
Yeah, ironic isn't it? ;)

When you read "better relations with the US and Israel" you have to know what they're comparing FrP with. The socialists don't want anything to do with you and the Socialist Left (SV) don't even want to be in NATO.


As for the wiki link, I figured you just wanted the quick and dirty scoop. Here's a link to the FrP site in English:

http://www.frp.no/Innhold/FrP/Temasider/Flere_sprak/English/

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #110 on: August 03, 2007, 01:23:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
I think we just might have avoided this whole mess if the US Government would have let the UN  complete its job of verifying the "evidence" of these things. The whole war on terror might look entirely different now.


Saddam was very uncooperative with the UN inspectors for over 10 years. How much longer do you think we should have given the UN?

IF.....the UN had been able to do it's job, the war on terror might look very different right now.
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Offline crockett

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« Reply #111 on: August 03, 2007, 01:41:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
There was evidence of WMD's before  the invasion, that evidence turned out to be false. I have already linked sources for Saddam's link to terrorists (note I did not say Al-Qaeda)


Yes there was evidence to say Saddam had WMD's however just as important there was plenty of evidence to show he no longer had them. Thew entire problem is Bush and co cherry picked the evidence to make his case for war.

That is called misleading us into war. He had options to verify data but he choose to ignore what the UN inspectors told him. Bush had his sites on war with Iraq and that's because he was the decider. Just not a very smart one..

 
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I don't recall that either. I do recall Bush saying Saddam had links to terrorists and that Saddam had given safe harbor to Al-Qaeda members. (One Al-Qaeda member that we know about.) From this folks have come to the conclusion that Bush linked Al-Qaeda to Iraq and from there  to 9/11.
[/B]


I guess you didn't watch that video I posted.. I'll post it again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xyd_IRgGs


 
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Or it's there if that is all you are looking to see. People see what they want to see. After seeing all the evidence that is out there, I still say, maybe, maybe not. As Joe Americans it is not likely we will ever know the truth of the matter. Our grandkids might know someday when the government finally declassifies documents. We will be dead and gone by then most likely.

*edit* Much of the evidence that is out there is nothing more than allegations and speculation that people have taken as fact. [/B]


I think the proof has been put out there you just don't agree with it. BTW it's funny that both Rice and Powell speaking for the administration both agreed Saddam didn't have the ability to produce WMD's even in early 2001. Yet soon as they wanted to make the case for war.. they changed their minds.

How do you ignore that?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 01:45:48 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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« Reply #112 on: August 03, 2007, 01:48:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
UNMOVIC asked for mere months to complete their inspections and confirm Iraq's disarmament. Of course such a result would not be popular in the United States of Regime Change. Your government wanted this war and they were prepared to stifle any peaceful solution. I trust the US government a lot less than even the UN. Hell, even evil dictators are more honest about their intentions.

This was was not about WMD. WMD was the excuse for war, the casus belli, and UNMOVIC was about to expose the lie. So you had the inspectors removed and invaded Iraq.



Exactly.. this is what the Bush supporters fail to see..or choose to ignore. The last part was rather ignorant though
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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« Reply #113 on: August 03, 2007, 02:02:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Cause and effect. Our former government is guilty as well, but at least they were coerced. Your still current government started this out of their own free will. And the American people reelected them and thus are guilty as well.


No the American people didn't elect him.. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 which is the people's vote. He was voted in by the Electoral College.

In 2004 hew also was voted in by the electoral college but I also think Kerry won the popular vote, but because Kerry conceded we will never know.

The majority of the people in this country did not vote for Bush.. The system failed in 2000 and it failed in the last election.
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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« Reply #114 on: August 03, 2007, 02:07:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Saddam was very uncooperative with the UN inspectors for over 10 years. How much longer do you think we should have given the UN?

IF.....the UN had been able to do it's job, the war on terror might look very different right now.


We were very  uncooperative with Iraq as well. It's no secret that Saddam played games, but I guess it's a secret that we also played games with him.

We routinely held up "approved" shipments into Iraq as a way to harass Saddam and in an attempt to cause disruption in his govt. Of course you will never hear about that on Fox news or CNN. Food and medicine were of the many things that we delayed shipments for.

You can read a little about it here or can do your own research..

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp

But we are not blameless as we played games just as much as Saddam did.

BTW when Saddam kicked out the UN inspectors, it was because their info had been used to target sites in Iraq. We used info gained by the inspectors to attack Iraq which was in direct violation of the UN mandate.

Saddam kicked them out because of it. You think the USA wouldn't do the same thing nor any other country?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 02:15:20 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #115 on: August 03, 2007, 02:43:56 PM »
Yes I did watch that video you posted, it is a collection of cherry picked statements to show a particular viewpoint.(kinda like what Michael Moore does in his films) How you can derive conclusions from that without watching each individual speech so that the context of each statement is known is beyond me.

Quote
Yes there was evidence to say Saddam had WMD's however just as important there was plenty of evidence to show he no longer had them.


Even you make the statement that there was conflicting evidence. This is my whole point, you can't know for sure when you look at all of the evidence in and objective way. Even in Hans Blix report that Viking posted, there are areas that Hans Blix admits:

Quote
The second reflection is that with relevant witnesses available
it becomes even more important to be able to conduct interviews
in modes and locations, which allow us to be confident that the
testimony is given without outside influence.

While the Iraqi side seems to have encouraged interviewees not to
request the presence of Iraqi officials (so-called minders) or
the taping of the interviews, conditions ensuring the absence of
undue influences are difficult to attain inside Iraq
.


In this statement, HB shows us that there are positives concerning the interviews being done, yet there is still concern that those being interviewed aren't entirely free of undue influences, which would make that testimony suspect.

Quote
However, even if the use of advanced technology could quantify
the amount of anthrax, said to be dumped at the site, the results
would still be open to interpretation.


More uncertainty. There is more in HB's report. There is also a lot of positive progress shown.

Several times in HB's report he mentions the phrase unilaterally destroyed in 1991. How can they know this is they if still need to verify this?
Obviously there is still doubt or the inspection team wouldn't have been there.

Quote
I think the proof has been put out there you just don't agree with it.


I don't agree that it is proof. Your video link for example for reasons stated previously in this post.

Quote
BTW it's funny that both Rice and Powell speaking for the administration both agreed Saddam didn't have the ability to produce WMD's even in early 2001.


The ability to produce is separate from still maintaining previous stockpiles of actual weapons and precursors. It is also separate from still storing manufacturing equipment so that it may be used later. Not saying Iraq did, just saying it's different.

Quote
Yet soon as they wanted to make the case for war.. they changed their minds.


Intelligence assessments change constantly as new information becomes available and is analyzed. Also, we get right back to the point that your video is nothing more than a collection of cherry picked sound bytes and without knowing the context these statements were made in basing conclusions off that video are not reasonable.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #116 on: August 03, 2007, 02:58:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
No the American people didn't elect him.. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 which is the people's vote. He was voted in by the Electoral College.

In 2004 hew also was voted in by the electoral college but I also think Kerry won the popular vote, but because Kerry conceded we will never know.

The majority of the people in this country did not vote for Bush.. The system failed in 2000 and it failed in the last election.


Total votes from both elections. You are correct for 2000 and incorrect for 2004.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/

The system did not fail. The 2000 election does illustrate a fundamental flaw in the system itself imo. Whoever gets the most votes should win and I'm not talking about some dork from the Electoral College voting. I'm talking about Jane/Joe American's votes. The 2000 election is a perfect illustration of why Jane/Joe American's votes do not count because ultimately, it is the Electoral College and not us that vote in the president.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #117 on: August 03, 2007, 03:00:56 PM »
Quote
We routinely held up "approved" shipments into Iraq as a way to harass Saddam and in an attempt to cause disruption in his govt.


Of course we did. Even the Clinton administration had a policy of regime change in Iraq. They just went about it in a different way.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #118 on: August 03, 2007, 03:04:30 PM »
Quote
I hope you lose this war with so many casualties that hardly a family is left without experiencing the personal cost of war,


Some of us here have family members in Iraq. Pretty sad to think that you wish this upon us. If this is truly how you feel, understand that sometimes things are better off left unsaid.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #119 on: August 03, 2007, 03:08:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
No the American people didn't elect him.. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 which is the people's vote. He was voted in by the Electoral College.

In 2004 hew also was voted in by the electoral college but I also think Kerry won the popular vote, but because Kerry conceded we will never know.

The majority of the people in this country did not vote for Bush.. The system failed in 2000 and it failed in the last election.


ALL presidents are "voted in" by the electoral college, you obviously don't know how the US elects it's presidents.