Submarines made easy

[sparow]

Hi all,

I'm coming back to this topic...Always nice to stir things up a bit, once in a while...

I am aware that the need for submarines in Aces High is completely secondary but I still believe that it would bring a new dimension to the game, not in a strategical role, but more in a tactical role, as a CV killer.

Why do I say - me of all persons - submarines would be an easy addition to AH? Well, because, basicaly, everything we need is already here...

Naval vehicles: we have PT Boats;
Torpedoes: we have them;
Main guns: we have them;
AAA guns: there;

So, what don't we have?
An image of a surfaced U-Boat or Gato Class sub;
An image of a periscope snooping out of the water;
An image of a sinking submarine;
An image of the interior of the bridge, with access to the main control interface;
A periscope sight (this should not be hard);
An outside view from the turret;

Spawn: automatic and random;
General Heading Movement: subject to control by player, via waypoints, like CV's; otherwise, automatic;
Manual manouever movement: by keyboard or joystick, as in PTs, player controlled;
A submarine would be limited to 3 depths: surface (boat visible), periscope (only periscope visible, dark shadow visible from the air), underwater (300ft depth, invisible to all but HOST);
Depth control: via buttons on the command interface;
His ability to move on diesel or electric power would be automatic;
Range and autonomy  (for a Gato class type):
11,800 nm at 10 knots (21,900 km at 19 km/h) surfaced
100 nm at 3 knots (185 km at 5.6 km/h) (maximum) submerged
Submerged Endurance: 48 hours
Speed: 20¼ knots (37.5 km/h) surfaced, 8¾ knots (16 km/h) submerged
Armament: 10 x 21 in (533 mm) torpedo tubes (6 forward, 4 aft, 24 torpedoes); 1 x 3 in (76 mm)/50 cal AA gun, 2 x .50 cal (12.7 mm) and 2 x .30 cal {7.6 2mm} machineguns);

Damage model: loss of engine, loss of control surfaces, hull perforation, by 20mm, rockets, bombs or artillery shells; not much needed to damage or sink a submarine...

Perk it a little, if you like...Why not?

Cheers,

[Bosco123]

No we will never have subs in AH

Get the Italian airforce!!

[sparow]

Bosco,

Thank you for reading.

[Greebo]

You would also need some means of detecting and killing a submerged submarine or they would be too powerful. Depth charges for aircraft and ideally the ability to see the sub hazily through the water when it is near the surface.

Also sonar, depth charges and hedgehog mortars for destroyers, if they could be made to detach a distance from the fleet under player control.

[NHawk]

Originally posted by sparow
....So, what don't we have?
.....

The ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by NHawk
The ability to place anything below 0 altitude isn't possible in the software as it is now.

Could you email me a copy of the coad please?  I'd like to see it too

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Greebo
You would also need some means of detecting and killing a submerged submarine or they would be too powerful. Depth charges for aircraft and ideally the ability to see the sub hazily through the water when it is near the surface.

Also sonar, depth charges and hedgehog mortars for destroyers, if they could be made to detach a distance from the fleet under player control.

Not really all that hard. Make the depth charges like the puffy ack and make it auto. If a submerged sub gets close to a battle group it starts depth charging. A sub at periscope depth should be easy to kill with bombs since the original idea said that you would be able to see a dark outline of the sub at PD.

As slow as subs were they wouldn't be all that powerfull in the game but might be fun to play with.

As far as the zero altitude setting the original idea also took that into account. For the 3 depth settings you only have to make 2 models. One surface running sub, and anouther of just the periscope. Everything going on below the water is just a matter of moving a marker around.

[Oogly50]

I would like them.

[Ghosth]

You first need a water surface that the sub can rise up through, ships can sail on, and that the sub can sink below.

Then you need sonar, both active and passive for both the subs and the destroyers.

Lick those 2 problems and yes the rest of it is fairly easy.

BTW You also need to be able to man a deck gun 4"?

[OOZ662]

Originally posted by dedalos
Could you email me a copy of the coad please?  I'd like to see it too

The GV-falling-forever bug, the gunner-unable-to-exit-after-pilot-death bug, the ability to throw PTs up into the air and pierce the ground thereby entering the neverending spiral.

These all show that there is no below-ground. Crash a plane at high speed and you'll see as well.

[NHawk]

Originally posted by dedalos
Could you email me a copy of the coad please?  I'd like to see it too

When you've worked with terrains as much as I have and you have an intimate knowledge of how things work in the game, then and only then can you make a comment like this with any hope of validity.

[sparow]

Hi gents,

Thank you for your posting. In fact, maybe you're taking this simple idea a bit further...

My idea is simple: a surfaced sub (Position 1) sails like a PTBoat. It fires torpedos like a PTBoat. It shoots it's main deck gun like any other ship gun, airfield ack or tank. Even the placement and operation of the turret machine guns works just like in the tank turret...

A periscope depth submerged submarine (Position 2) only shows the tip of the periscope and - if possible - a small wake behind it. The colour of the sea, in roughly the area of the submarine, turns darker to simulate it's presence. But it is 1 pixel deep. Well, as deep as the ocean surface, because it is the ocean, only a bit darker...It would still be capable to fire his torpedos.

At 300ft deep (Position 3), no one would be able to see or sink a submarine. Only HOST would know his location. And the player in control, if any.

So, because you only have 3 depths, at surface and periscope depths it would have a graphical depiction and the sub would be vulnerable to everything one throwed at it. At 300ft depth, nothing would be able to touch it, or could he attack nothing too.

Diving or surfacing animations, should be made easy: when it dives, is like sinking head first but with a very shallow angle - and it dives to nothing, really - and produces a white wake then...nothing...only a periscope out if submerging to periscope depth, nothing at all if diving to 300ft...
When it comes up, it's exactly the reverse: first the periscope shows up, then his bow comes out of the limbo followed by the rest of the hull, in a very shallow angle, until all the visible submarine is surfaced. It still will be a less than half sub...
When sinking, it will sink head first, like the boats.

I don't think sonar would be of much use...It just would complicate matters...Just make the Task Force flash and give the DD's the possibility to throw depth charges in the general direction of the menace...Also allow for cruiser and CV guns to automatically start shooting at the sub like they already do at aircraft or PTBoats...A good 250lb bomb should be enough to sink a submarine. Maybe even a couple of smaller bombs or even rockets.

Doing 20knots surfaced and 8knots submerged, a submarine would not be able to run away easily except if it went to Position 3 mode quickly. Anyway, that would make it harmless, so...

NEW IDEA : at 300ft depth, no dar, voice or text comms would be available, only at periscope or surfaced! What do you think?

Now, imagine: three or four submarines gather into a wolfpack and they start chasing those Task Forces parked by an airfield...or hidden in safe place...That would give our "Admirals" something to think about, right?

Fire all tubes!

Cheers,

[Traveler]

I don't think the ocean bottom is programmed into the maps.  there is nothing below sealevel.  That would all have to be developed and then flooded in order to provided a real world underwater.  Ports would be shallow, forcing the sub near the surface if the sub wanted to sit at port to keep the CV down.

I think it's a lot of work and not as easy to put into action as it might first apper.

perhaps after completion of Combat tour, yea, that's the ticket.  Two weeks after Combat Tour is release the first upgrade will have subs.

[Bosco123]

Originally posted by OOZ662
The GV-falling-forever bug, the gunner-unable-to-exit-after-pilot-death bug, the ability to throw PTs up into the air and pierce the ground thereby entering the neverending spiral.

These all show that there is no below-ground. Crash a plane at high speed and you'll see as well.

hey OOZ I see that you lost your avitar. What happend?

[dedalos]

Originally posted by NHawk
When you've worked with terrains as much as I have and you have an intimate knowledge of how things work in the game, then and only then can you make a comment like this with any hope of validity.

So you don't really know if the coad can support it or how big of a coad change would be needed