Originally posted by Widewing
Well, your diagrams are completely dependent upon the data used to plot them. I get substantially different turn radius figures for many of the aircraft on the diagrams.
That's true, and I think I can explain that if we back up a bit to something you said earlier:
Have a look at this graphic and tell me if you think that a 13,457 lb P-47D-25 should out-turn a fuel light, 8,604 lb P-51B.
I looked at the diagram you posted with that text, and it is difficult to draw conclusions from it, other than the overhead shot of the P-51D and the P47D25 film flight path trails look very similar, with perhaps a slightly better turn rate for the P51D.
Your point about variations in data is a good one, and I can also get both the P51D and the P47D25, along with most of the other aircraft to fly a slightly tighter turn radius, but that isn't necessarily the right thing to do. Take a look at this diagram.
It shows that both aircraft can be flown slightly deeper into the stall, resulting in a slightly lower speed, a slightly smaller turn radius and in both cases a slightly lower sustained turn rate, which is an indication of below maximum performance. The curves shown in the diagram above are for the current version, and they show that the P51D does indeed out turn the P-47D25, which I think would agree with your expectation.
The only caveat being this, the P47D25 has a couple of advantages, if you take another look at this EM diagram:
You notice that the P47D25 has a higher instantaneous turn rate and bleeds speed more quickly, which means the P47D25 pilot is almost always going to be able to tighten his turn more, and more quickly than the P51D pilot which will mean that the P51D pilot will find it very difficult to avoid conceding the first shot. The P51D's advantage is an endgame advantage that would suit energy fighters better, which is good because in this match up the P51D should clearly be flown as the energy fighter, despite having the better maximum sustained turn rate.
Now here's where the P-51s get strange. I tested the D model at all flaps settings and the rate of turn varies very little, but the radius does tighten.
Here's the data, by flap position, time, mph and degrees/second to complete 3 turns.
No flaps: 60.12 seconds @ 174 mph 17.96 deg/sec
1/5: 59.78 seconds @ 171 mph 18.066 deg/sec
2/5: 59.76 seconds @ 155 mph 18.072 deg/sec
3/5: 59.81 seconds @ 146 mph 18.057 deg/sec
4/5: 59.94 seconds @ 137 mph 18.02 deg/sec
Full Flaps: 59.59 seconds @ 128 mph 18.12 deg/sec
Essentially, regardless of speed or flap position, the rate of turn is stagnant.
Ok, I've used your data to plot the radius and rate curves shown below:
It shows that for the P51D the turn radius decreases as you lower the flaps, while the sustained turn rate remains fairly constant. It means that the optimal situation is with full flaps because that's where it has the best radius and rate, so once you start dropping flaps on the P51D, you start to fall into a trap, you need to keep lowering more flaps to max perform the aircraft, which is contrary to the way the P51D should really be flown.
But it doesn't work that way for every aircraft. Here is a similar example for the F4U1D:
It shows that for this aircraft the optimum situation occurs when 2 notches of flaps have been lowered. Lowering more than two notches will reduce the turn radius, but it will also degrade the sustained turn rate, which is not good. A player who uses full flaps on the F4U1D against one who only uses 2 notches will make early gains, and may even tighten his turn enough for a snap shot, but if he doesn't make the shot, he will soon be wallowing with low E, possibly trying to pull his nose over for additional shots with high yo-yos while the guy at 2 notches will either be able to keep his nose high and out turn him or when he has sufficient altitude advantage, just use the turning room provided by the vertical separation to turn under for the kill. The point being that trying to use only 2 notches of flaps when ever possible in the F4U1D, and thus optimising sustained turn rate, is good.
That is, to my eye, is rather unusual. I'd sure like to see an explanation of the P-51's flight modeling, because I don't understand why it has deteriorated, nor do I understand the constant turn rate regardless of flap position.
Ok, those are two good points, one regarding the sustained turn rates, the other the changes in the flight model.
Firstly, issues around sustained turn rates and radii are always very perplexing, because the cause and effect relationships are not always intuitive and the mathematics required to resolve such questions is fairly complex with an enormous number of factors interacting with each other. I have the advantage of a flight model that I can tweak in order to see the effect of almost any change. The results can be surprising, but changes resulting from different wing and flaps configurations can reproduce everything we see in Aces High... Which leads me to your second point.
We have seen a lot of changes in the game over the years, some more dramatic than others, and during that time there have always been players who either dislike or disagree with the direction of that change. Those issues almost always arise because of comparisons with real life. But as we have so often seen, with the sparse and varied sources available we can't pin down the real aircraft behaviour with any degree of certainty. Trying to keep the errors as small as possible is as good as it gets, and everything I've seen points to the fact that HTC are constantly striving in that direction. How close they come to getting it right will always be a matter for speculation on these boards, but if you are a player trying to do well in the game, that is only a distraction.
Of course, a lot of folk enjoy that sort of discussion, but I don't have any real interest in how close the aircraft might be to the real thing, other than to help clarify when there is some doubt about the way the flight model is behaving. At the moment, I don't see anything that should cause any concern. If you want to excel in Aces High, it doesn't matter how the P-51D has changed between patches, all that really matters is how it compares to the other aircraft right now! My only motivation is to provide information to help players do better in the game.
Badboy
