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Offline Hap

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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 08:19:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NHawk
As much as I love AH, it boils down to one thing...

In general, I've watched the game deteriorate from a serious WWII Combat Simulation with strategies and tactics to win the war, to a WWII Combat Game with the war as a side feature. Older squads and players may be able to see and understand the subtle difference.

Is it the players or the game that changed? Personally I think it's the players. Players drive the way a game is played. Is either way to play correct? Yes, and long time ago I came to the realization that nothing can be done to turn it back to the way it was.

Let the bashing begin. :)


Hawk, you speak truth.  I relish the old days with big maps when fuel, ord, and troops could be porked effectively.   Also, multi zoned maps added a wrinkle also.

Offline Hap

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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 08:45:02 AM »
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Originally posted by LYNX What do folk want from Aces High ?.  

1)Seems to me they don't want to be contended for resets.  Evident "ON PEAK" when the losing side logs or bails to the other arena just as reset is achievable.  :( [/B]


Maybe Lynx.  I wish I knew.  Really.  Or maybe, you're just spot on and the #'s tell the story.  Logging and bailing on a losing venture = folks aren't interested in winning or losing.  They like the furball in the game, on 200, and on the bbs.

I hate it as a way of life and culture.  So schoolyard'ish.

I do know what was going on on the bbs during that time though.  A very vocal bunch of players who shouted down those who preferred "war stragegy" and who preferred themselves furballs.

From what I can see, they aren't here anymore either.  

And I do not know if what I read on bbs reflected the subsribers wishes generally.  The whole 9 months or so was just plain awful.  Just one big yell fest, and those who behaved the worst won.  The squeaky whee syndrome, but with meanspiritedness, personal attacks, and bile day in and day out.  

You're dead on about repelling a reset.

I think not 25% understand what we're talking about.

HTC changed the dynamics of the game by barring the ability pork fuel to 25%, removing multi-zoned maps, and adding barracks.  The changes favored the furballers HUGELY.  I suppose Dale found that the changes  helped HTC meet their business objectives.  Why else do it?  1 answer is that customers are now happier, and stay and play for a longer period than they used to.  

I dont' have access to the facts, but I suppose that must be the case.

Besides the fun of flying and fighting which over time grows thin and old, the BEST part was the strategy.  That made it a bit like chess -- or some tactical game whose name I cannot muster up for a better comparision -- moves and counter moves with reset as the goal.  Now, certain pieces are uncapturable, and instead of having 64 squares we have 32.

The game went in the direction of that dreaded Microsoft shoot 'em up game that began in mid-air and ended when 1 man was left standing.

I have trouble being excited about playing long term when the best tools to achieve the object of the game have been removed or retooled, so that it has become another sort of game.  There's just not enough interest to interest me long term.  That's why I've played only sporadically over the past several years.

But a goal that requires a large # of players to pull in the same direction, that's a different thing all together, and was very much fun.

The individualistic achievements have been favored over the group/country achievements.

Pity.

My hope is someone someday will take the best that is Aces High and combine it with a game that asks the players to control/destroy/dominate/capture manufacturing, communication facilities, local field reserves, in order to capture territory and win the day.

It is my greater hope, that Aces High will do all this, and not some other guy.  Just seems farfetched to think it will happen.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 08:53:40 AM by Hap »

Offline Helm

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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2007, 09:18:46 AM »
HTC continues to make ‘Porking” more difficult.  You used to be able to stop an enemy horde by killing the front line Troops/Supplies.   Now each base has so many Troop building that one person can rarely survive the ack long enuff to kill them all.  This ‘improvement’ was in response to the fact  that1 or 2 guys could wipe out the “Army” on an entire front.  This, although effective in terms of game play was ridiculous.  1 or 2 Players being able to kill the entire Army? ….so I would have to agree with HTC that this change was smart.


I’ve been here for over 6 years during  this time the 2 biggest changes I have seen is:

1) You have to kill the entire town?….back in the old days 2 guys could “Steal” a base if one killed the ack at the town …and the other brought troops.  This was a very effective system because a small group could take undefended bases, while the enemy horde was busy elsewhere.  This then forced the Horde to devote resources to defend their bases.  This in turn generated lots of small unit actions spread all over the maps, which in the end is more fun for everybody.


2) Arena caps….I understand it’s purpose, but it has in my opinion weakened the “Squads” in the game.  Our squad used to pick and arena that needed our help/numbers and we would “Station” ourselves there until our help was no longer needed.  This allowed Squad members to know where to go and what to do.  There was no “locked out” of the arena?….or having to change sides cause of “ENY issues“.

  All this does is generate confusion.  Some players don’t want to change teams to balance the arena.  Other players have a favorite plane that they want to fly and the ENY stops that.  We used to have a very active pilot who quit the game because he could not always fly his beloved La7.  He also would bum out if we switched teams to balance numbers….well guess what ?…since he can’t fly his bird..and with his squad…he said…bye bye aces.  Our Squad was weakened.

  Another effect of the Arena caps is:….not only are you expected to jump arenas to balance numbers…but you are even pushed to jump teams as well….The main draw back to this system is that you never get to know other players on a team, because everyday your team will be different people.  It’s very hard to develop a repour with other Squads/Players if you cant work together on a semi-consistent basis.  I remember the time when I knew every Squad and who most of their members. This came either working with them (Teammate) or working against them  (enemy) on a consistent basis…the last time I talked about the demise of the Game’s “Squads” I was labeled a Heretic.


  Sadly the real problem is not HTC but the players in the game.  Every change they make is in response to how we as players conduct ourselves.
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Offline NHawk

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2007, 09:59:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
....HTC changed the dynamics of the game by barring the ability pork fuel to 25%, removing multi-zoned maps, and adding barracks....
I didn't quote you entirely, but overall very well said!

The ability to bring the fuel supply down to 25% was the worst blow to the strategic side of the game. If done, it forced the country to defend and resupply that base in order to move forward. Now, taking fuel out has no strategic importance at all and a country can continue to advance no matter what.

The muli-zoned maps really didn't affect anything. A single zone map with strat down and requiring re-supply still functions quite well. Mindnao and all of the small maps were always single zone maps. Multi-zones didn't come about until the large map era.

Adding barracks was understandable. It was far to easy to take out troops at a field. But I think the number of barracks added was excessive.
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Offline Patches1

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Strats
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 10:09:54 AM »
Strat Targets at a level above 50% do not hinder Airfield Ords, Troops, Radar, Fuel, Acks.

Strat Targets below 50% do hinder Airfield Ords, Troops, Radar, Fuels, Acks.

ALL Strat Targets must funnel through City Strats. Take City Strats below 50% and you further slow down the regeneration of the Airfield Targets.

Strat does work, but you have to understand how it works.

Strat Targets can also be resupplied by GV, or C47, as well as the automatic trains and convoys. Resupplying a Strat Target by GV, or C47, helps get it back above 50% quicker.

Good map reading skills will help.

Just some thoughts....
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Offline Patches1

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2007, 10:23:02 AM »
Oh! And another thought....

If they can't Bomb you (Ordnance/Ammo) and they can't capture you (Barracks/Troops)...why worry if they can see you (Radar)?
"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem."- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, General, USMC

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2007, 10:25:57 AM »
Lynx

Is it possible that instead of your opponents "forgetting how to pork", maybe they just didnt care that much about the reset? (Or at least, not care enough to drop what they were doing and go to "defend the war" mode.)

I can see some of you guys feel like the player base has been lead astray, either by since-departd furballing advocates, or by game changes, or by the newerr players being somehow less capable of strategy. I guess I just figure that people want to have fun, and they have fun doing the things that are fun for them. Can't see how the BKs or their ilk could be blamed, because, well, we humans tend to do what the heck we want regardless of what we're told.

I konw I enjoyed capture work a lot more when I first started in the days of AH1. Interesting to hear some say that for them "flying planes got old", because for me it was the opposite -- flying got more and more challenging the more I learned about it.

Meanwhile, the population changed -- mostly with increased numbers. Nowadays, to be frank, it seems to me that base operations depend 99% on numbers balance. In other words, the swarm rules....captures and resets happen with numerical advantages, adn not much else. Individual attacks can be swung when outnumbered with heroic effort, but that can't be sustained across an entire map.

And I think most players sense that numbers determine the victory. (Put millions on a battlefield, and the heroism of a single man is very unlikely to win a war...) With things coming doen to numbers, winning the war is  about as interesting and varied as tic tac toe (is that Oughts and Crosses across the pond?). I'd love for it to be more of a challenge, but it just isnt. Can't say its the loss of fuel porkage, which was simply frustrating (ie NOT FUN)...maybe design is part of it.

But in the end, with large numbers of people online simple statistical averaging means that the populations begin to look and act the same, more or less. Individual personalities make some difference, but by and large there will be the same numbers of good sticks, same numbers of landgrabbers, same numbers of newbs.  The only time one will have a big advantage over another will be when the numbers swing.
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Offline Tiger

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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2007, 10:41:14 AM »
Back in the day...

You could stop the roll by killing the troops rather easily, and it was done often.  Now days there are simply too many barracks on bases to take out troops along the entire front.

Back in the day...

You could pork fuel to 25% which forced them into a defensive posture due to limited flight time, upping from rear fields, or running supplies in the goon which would buy you some time to reorganize a good defensive or a counter strike.  Now days, the lowest you can drop fuel is 75%, who takes more than that on a normal flight anyway?

Back in the day...

You could nail HQ and blind them for hours.  Now days, the HQ is resupplied before the Bombers can egress from enemy territory.


As you can see, stopping the rolling hoard was much easier Back in the Day than it is now.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2007, 11:16:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tiger
Back in the day...

You could stop the roll by killing the troops rather easily, and it was done often.  Now days there are simply too many barracks on bases to take out troops along the entire front.

Back in the day...

You could pork fuel to 25% which forced them into a defensive posture due to limited flight time, upping from rear fields, or running supplies in the goon which would buy you some time to reorganize a good defensive or a counter strike.  Now days, the lowest you can drop fuel is 75%, who takes more than that on a normal flight anyway?

Back in the day...

You could nail HQ and blind them for hours.  Now days, the HQ is resupplied before the Bombers can egress from enemy territory.


As you can see, stopping the rolling hoard was much easier Back in the Day than it is now.


So in essence, "back in the day" there were so many ways to blunt the effect of numbers that a small number of defenders could essentially stop the majority from playing the capture game....and in the process, stop the furballers/ GV (dustballers???) from making combat contact. Since HT changed things, he obviously felt that situation wasnt good for the game.

On the other hand, is it fair to say that right now the balance is off to the other end of the scale? That outnumbered defenders have little chance of stopping the swarm? If so, has the capture game come to depend so overwhelmingly on numbers that it holds less interest?

I'm no game designer...but is it possible that although the current setup is frustrating for the strategically oriented, it might actually make for better game play when one considers the "maximum fun for the maximum number"? After all, while stopping a horde with porking may be satisfying for the outnumbered, it by definition means that the greater number have play opportunities taken away.

What do you experienced strat war guys think?
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Offline Getback

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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2007, 11:30:07 AM »
Darn ya Lynx, you took away all my arguments.


Howsoever, Just to off a porkin is not as easy as 1 2 3.  It takes time to get to a good bombing level and sometimes the urgency seems to be on defense.

I often wonder why they don't bomb the ammo bunkers before the radar. That's what I do. I know that often, rooks will take down the radar at a couple of bases that lead to a vbase in order to take the vbase.


Thinking about it further, there are only 4 barracks and 2 ammo bunkers at the smaller bases. One set of buffs could easily take that out.

Just really don't have anything solid to throw at you Lynx

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Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2007, 11:35:46 AM »
People play the way the game heards them.

On the old big maps with 750 players there was plenty of opportunity to play every aspect of the game.  Strings of GV bases, plenty of space to get buffs to altitude, plenty of close combat air bases for furballing, CV's everywhere, backfield bases ripe for NOE missions, milkrunners and the inevitable milkrunner hunters, etc., etc., etc.

That environment encouraged a great diversity of gameplay styles and strategies.

Then we went to only small maps (and HT's experiment with forced choke points on a big map).  It was obvious HT was trying to promote the fight rather than the war.  Furballs became more the norm but the war raged on.

Additional changes were put in place;  Make strats less effective, over-ack the fields, make sure fuel is never affected, make HQ harder to drop and easier to get back up...  Maps were built without any CV's or too small to fly high alt buff missions...

Is it then any wonder that the current player base has no incentive or desire to go pork a field?  They've been taught not to.  They've been taught (not only be the game design but by many in this community) that flying fighters in air-to-air combat is the only way to play the game.

Who wants to not only get ganged but have it happen while heavy?

I'm sure one of the "Aces Low" maps Lynx refers to is SmPizza.  You know, I was on that map a couple of times this week and was thinking "This is a great map".  Why?  It allows for all those styles of play we've lost along the way.  I don't have to fear upping heavy.  I can play GV's or CV's.  There's room to get a buff to alt and there's buffs to hunt milking.  There's furballs and one on ones.  It really does have everything.

As I said at the beginning, the game design and the map design heard the players in how to play.

[EDIT]  As an example of conditioning, I used to always fly an F6F heavy to an enemy aifield to take out the VH (or something else if it was already down).  Now I never do.  I refuse to get close to the star wars field ack.  Period.  

On the other hand, if i see an enemy fighter dropping on one of our fields to try to take something out I quickly get a plane on the runway so I can pick up the inevitable proxie kill.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2007, 11:47:46 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Tiger

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« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2007, 11:53:25 AM »
You're right Simaril, I believe it was a programming change to alter the gameplay.

"Back in the Day"  you get a group of 8 guys together, fly off in pairs and take out the troops/fuel at 4 front line bases and stop the steam rolling for a atleast a little while.

Now, good grief there seems like 50 barracks on a large field, and porking the fuel does nothing to stop them (like I said, who actaully takes more than 75% on a standard mission).

As far as bomber porking the bases.  You have to make 2 passes over a medium airfield to kill the ord.  Not too hard to do if you come in at sufficient alt and can manage a quick turn and recalibration.  But porking the ord is even easy for jabos.  But porking the ord will not stop the roll, you can take 4 110's with the heavy cannon package and level the town in less than 2 mins.

But for a bomber to take out all the barracks... you are looking at multiple passes.  I don't think it is possible for you to make that many passes without getting overwhelmed by enemy fighters.  

As far as the strat goes, if you take the time to hit the city, then the grunt training, you will have an effect.  But when you are outnumbered and getting rolled, how can you justify diverting the manpower necessary to up enough bombers with escorts to take out the city and the Grunt Training and then hope and pray your jabos can take out all the barracks on the front line bases???

Offline Patches1

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Back in the Day
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2007, 12:05:27 PM »
Fighters complained about fuels being Porked...
Bombers complained about no Missions....
GVs complained about...GVs...
Jabos were doing good.

So...HT Strengthed...

Airfields by Fighter/Furballers requests...more acks, barracks
Gave Bombers a challenge by making Strats take 50% damage, or more, before effect is felt.
Gave GV'ers more GVs....
And made JABOs a surgical strike tool.

And still...the Hoard (Community) complains about what they requested.

:O
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Offline Tiger

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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2007, 12:21:43 PM »
No one should really complain about the 50% strat being down before it has an effect.  One set of bombers can drop around 20-25% just carpet bombing.  One set that takes the time to drop one at a time and make multie passes can drop 30-35%.

Also, I'm a production planner at a factory (a polymer, fiber, and filament factory, but the analogy should work for you).  At any given time, we have around 20% of our machines standing idle.  So if you were to blow up 20% of our factory, we could still function at basically the same capacity.  Of the 80% that are running, I'd say another 15%-20% or so were running for future inventory.  So if you were to blow up 35-40% we could still make our orders, we'd have to cancel of the odd-balls, but would still be OK for our major orders.  If you were to take us down to 50%, at that point we would have a major problem supplying what was absolutely critical to our customers.  I know it's an odd analogy, but I can see it working waiting to 50% before you start getting any effects downstream.

As far as the increase in AAA, that's understandable too, there would be plenty of guns setup to defend a base.  (on a side not, I think the # of manned and unmanned should be switched, but that it a different discussion about people defending bases rather than relying on AI)

The barracks... good gracious there are too many now.  Here's a solution to that.  Double their strength, and cut the number down.  Try 2 at a small base, 4 at medium, and 6 at a large?

Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2007, 01:40:04 PM »
Stop crying... play the game.
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