Author Topic: Bf 109F info  (Read 14774 times)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Bf 109F info
« Reply #225 on: October 31, 2007, 05:56:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
afaik the G14 was the late G6 with MW50, at the time when the G14 got introduced also the G6 mainly didnt use the gunpods that often, at least not while the homeland defending task. In oposite to 1943 now the 190A´s was there in higher numbers to attack the Bombers, while the 109´s HAD to do the topcover task against the much increased number of escort fighters.


I think G-6/G-14 supposed difference has been covered earlier. Regarding the rest, does the rarity of the gondolas actually speak for the larger airframe like the G.55 which could carry comparable load internally?

Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
All datasheets i saw regarding the G14 show MW50 + DB605A or AS, somewhere i did read that most remaining G6´s got MW50 as well.


For various reasons there were a lot G-14s without the MW50. In practice the factories tried to produce planes from what ever parts were available; as an example there is photo evidence of K type airframe with the DB 605AS.

Basicly there is plans and then there is reality. Often these are not similar.

Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
The G14-U4 was just 45kg more light than the K4 and 14kg comes from the more big MW50 load. The "normal" G14 was 90kg more light, still 14kg less MW50.


These values comes from the datasheet dated 13.8.1944 ie before the production of the K-4 was started. In January 1945 Mtt listed weight as 3400kg.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 06:05:18 AM by gripen »

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Bf 109F info
« Reply #226 on: October 31, 2007, 06:56:27 AM »
"Regarding the rest, does the rarity of the gondolas actually speak for the larger airframe like the G.55 which could carry comparable load internally?"

Good question but IMO, not necessarily. Germans obviously thought that a fighter should be small even if it meant less armament and less fuel, and more importantly (although not such a serious issue IRL) less wing area.

Now why is that?

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6863
Bf 109F info
« Reply #227 on: October 31, 2007, 07:39:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Good question but IMO, not necessarily. Germans obviously thought that a fighter should be small even if it meant less armament and less fuel, and more importantly (although not such a serious issue IRL) less wing area.

Now why is that?

-C+
Ta152H, Do335, Bv155 were not small, so the Germans changed their minds.

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Bf 109F info
« Reply #228 on: October 31, 2007, 08:06:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Now why is that?

-C+


Less wing area = more speed. Speed is life.

Smaller plane = cheaper to produce. G.55 cost 15,000 man-hours, P-51 cost 70,000 man hours, B-17 cost 330,000 man-hours.

A 109 cost only 7000 man hours to produce, so for the same production cost of one B-17 the Germans could build 47 Bf 109's. If all economies were equal one P-51 would face 10 Bf 109s over Germany.

Despite the fact that many think the 109 was the epitome of German engineering quality, in reality it was the Volkswagen of WWII fighters. It's engine - while technically advanced -  was made from crap and lasted only 160 hours. The fuselage lasted only 300 hours (G series) before it had to be overhauled or even replaced.

That is the reason behind the 109's success. It was built extremely cheap, but still had competitive performance compared to fighters tens of times its production value.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Bf 109F info
« Reply #229 on: October 31, 2007, 09:25:14 AM »
More things to haul, more maneuverability at lower ends of speed basically.

And BTW, the 109 greatests asset IMHO was exactly the way it was put together, especially for maintenance.

Would ponder on these hours though, - after all they used slave labour for a part of it, so were those registered?

And how many hours for an operable He-177 :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Xasthur

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2728
Bf 109F info
« Reply #230 on: October 31, 2007, 11:02:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
I can only refer on photo evidence and the fact that wing canons were fairly common the G-6 (the G-14 being very similar). [/B]


I too have seen many G-6 'gunboats' with the gondolas.
Raw Prawns
Australia

"Beaufighter Operator Support Services"

Offline Meyer

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Bf 109F info
« Reply #231 on: October 31, 2007, 11:37:13 AM »
Yes of course... the G-6 used the gondolas. But that doesn't mean that the use of the RVI wasn't very rare in the G-14...and IMO you wouldn't see many gondolas in the G-6's in late 44...

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Bf 109F info
« Reply #232 on: October 31, 2007, 06:47:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Good question but IMO, not necessarily. Germans obviously thought that a fighter should be small even if it meant less armament and less fuel, and more importantly (although not such a serious issue IRL) less wing area.

Now why is that?


Starting from the Bf 109F and Fw 190A, the Germans tended to increase wing area during the developement, particularly in the case of the high altitude variants. The Fw 190 is a good example how slightly larger airframe than the Bf 109 can carry considerably more internally without drag of the external load, the G.55 is another good example.

Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Less wing area = more speed. Speed is life.

Smaller plane = cheaper to produce. G.55 cost 15,000 man-hours, P-51 cost 70,000 man hours, B-17 cost 330,000 man-hours.

A 109 cost only 7000 man hours to produce, so for the same production cost of one B-17 the Germans could build 47 Bf 109's. If all economies were equal one P-51 would face 10 Bf 109s over Germany.

Despite the fact that many think the 109 was the epitome of German engineering quality, in reality it was the Volkswagen of WWII fighters. It's engine - while technically advanced - was made from crap and lasted only 160 hours. The fuselage lasted only 300 hours (G series) before it had to be overhauled or even replaced.

That is the reason behind the 109's success. It was built extremely cheap, but still had competitive performance compared to fighters tens of times its production value.


I think that none of these claims are exactly true and some are extremely untrue.

What are the sources for the man hours and are the numbers comparable?

Regarding the Bf 109 production and costs, "Willy Messerscmitt: Pioneer of Aviation Design" by Ebert-Kaiser-Peters gives an interesting and IMHO well founded view based on primary sources and views of Mtt insiders. And the book also explains how the listed man hours are counted.

Quote
Originally posted by Meyer
Yes of course... the G-6 used the gondolas. But that doesn't mean that the use of the RVI wasn't very rare in the G-14...and IMO you wouldn't see many gondolas in the G-6's in late 44...


It's pretty much impossible to say something sure, at least some photographic evidence exist. Regarding the altitudes, relatively largest proportion of air battles at high altitude took place probably in spring 1944 (land fronts were quiet then) and at least Finnish air force got most of the wing cannon armed G-6s after that.

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Bf 109F info
« Reply #233 on: November 01, 2007, 02:32:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
I think that none of these claims are exactly true and some are extremely untrue.

What are the sources for the man hours and are the numbers comparable?


The G.55 number comes from the Wikipedia article on said plane. The B-17 number comes from a post war USAF document regarding development and production costs of US war planes in the 1950's (with comparison to WWII planes). The P-51 number is more dubious since it came from another discussion forum without sources. 70,000 man hours sounds a lot compare to the Axis planes, but compared to the B-17 it fits, also when comparing Dollar price per unit (P-51: $51,000 - B-17: $200-something-thousand). Anyone have a better source for this? The 109 number I found in an online article on the development of the 109. However from the article on the G.55 it states:

"Early production of G.55 required about 15,000 man-hours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9,000 man-hours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf 109 in only 5,000 man-hours."

So the G.55 could have been made for 9000 man hours, and the 109 for 5000?

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Bf 109F info
« Reply #234 on: November 01, 2007, 06:28:36 AM »
"Starting from the Bf 109F and Fw 190A, the Germans tended to increase wing area during the developement, particularly in the case of the high altitude variants."

190 early models came with two wings which the larger one was finally selected (also caused by the change from 139 to 801). With 109 the wing area got smaller after 109E but the proile was altered. With TA152H the 190 series lost what was the best characteristic of the series: high speed maneuverability and G tolerance. Its assets were altitude, and high speed, not maneuverability.


"The Fw 190 is a good example how slightly larger airframe than the Bf 109 can carry considerably more internally without drag of the external load, the G.55 is another good example."

Regarding the gun armament I only know that Galland had a special 109F model with MG FFs in the wings and the gondola attachment still required a big opening in the wing for the clip, so leaving the wing guns out of design was a choice which was not dictated by the structure. But of course 109 was such a small airplane that when the need for bigger armament became issue there simply was not ample of room in the fuselage. But it surely was a brainfart to put a huge bump in the cowling when it could have been done better as was evident in Gallands other F which already had 13mms with a lot smaller, streamlined bump. So he actually had two special models with different armaments which neither of then was produced as such but slightly altered, but not to the better but to the worse.

Again it can be seen that a design is a compromise and surely there are "sweet spots" in design where limitations and demands meet and if we consider, say P51 and Bf109, the difference is clear: P51 is an escort fighter, large enough to carry lots of internal fuel and long low drag wing to enable low fuel consumption on cruising, whereas Bf109 is clearly a short range interceptor.

I can't comment on G55.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Bf 109F info
« Reply #235 on: November 01, 2007, 06:42:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
With 109 the wing area got smaller after 109E but the proile was altered.


Um ... the wing area was increased by the addition of the rounded wingtips. 109F has a slightly larger wing area than the 109E.

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Bf 109F info
« Reply #236 on: November 01, 2007, 06:53:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Um ... the wing area was increased by the addition of the rounded wingtips. 109F has a slightly larger wing area than the 109E.


...simply untrue.
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Bf 109F info
« Reply #237 on: November 01, 2007, 07:22:39 AM »
My mistake.

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6863
Bf 109F info
« Reply #238 on: November 01, 2007, 07:31:11 AM »
Quote
the German factories were able to assemble a Bf 109 in only 5,000 man-hours

Was the man hours for the P-51 just assembly time or did it include all the sub assembly times?

Quote
A 109 cost only 7000 man hours to produce

It only took another 2000 hours to produce all the component parts for the 109?

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Bf 109F info
« Reply #239 on: November 01, 2007, 08:02:41 AM »
I have no idea.