Author Topic: p40n vs p51d film.  (Read 1016 times)

Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« on: October 15, 2007, 08:39:23 AM »
hey folks love the game been playing about a year, this isnt my game name, but i have a film id liek coments on. i ran into this p51 higher than me, and i think i did pretty good to avoid him. the fight ended in a stalemate due to him running away. i think he shot all his ammo at me lol

comments would be very appreciated i want to see what im doing right and maybe learn what im doing wrong.

im sure a better pilot would have killed me easy, i made a few mistakes but so did he i think. i was surprised at the few shots i did get off couldnt kill em though cause he was warping and jumping around when he was in front of me.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5h40mbonbso
flying as Marvin57
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  we band of brothers;"
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Offline humble

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 10:17:12 AM »
mediafire requires cookies enabled to download so I couldnt get it...

see if you can post it to a different site or email it to me....

daverima@gmail.com

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Offline trotter

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2007, 05:01:16 PM »
Hi Marvin

Your technique is theoretically good, it is just execution that needs a little more practice. Once you can execute your evasion a little bit more efficiently, you won't even be pinged by that Pony.

Let me explain. You got in good situations to make his shots difficult, but not difficult enough. At the critical moment when he was about to take his shot, you were still lazily presenting him a full profile, maintaining your current rate of turn. This makes it easy for him to monitor where he should shoot. With more practice, you'll begin to know the exact moment (give or take a split second) when he will shoot, and just before that, you will either speed, slow down your rate of turn, or roll slightly so your turn is out of sync. He will either try to adjust rapidly to get a new solution (blowing more E than he already did in that film), or be forced to resposition.

Another note is, I'm not sure at what point you realized his skill level, but I think you could have pressed more aggressively, following him up briefly enough to get a few pings in the hopes that he would panic and come down. At around 1:50 he did just that, but you didn't even ping him. He had the E at that point (considering his plane versus yours) to maintain an advantage, but he chose not to.

After he came down, you got some really good shots in. If you were in any faster of a plane, you would have kept up long enough to nab him right there. Overall I think you did a pretty good job. Once you get a little more practice with gunnery, you could have ended that fight much earlier than you did.

Offline Spatula

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2007, 05:41:24 PM »
Ok here's my take on it. I don't see the fight as a failure - you did enough to avoid getting killed and got the 51 on the defensive several times. You're right in saying if it was a more skilled adversary, it would have ended differently, but thats another story.

You almost had him. Lets looks at the factors which let the P51 off the hook:

Firstly, your gun-defensives. There's two things i can mention here. The actual defensive tactics you employ, and the need to be more cohesive: eg thinking of it as not just do a defense, but as a whole plan to get you into a firing position which just so happens to involve a guns-jink. It's a mindset change. You should not look at just avoiding getting shot and after its performed then think about how to saddle up. You should do something which does both simultaneously. You would be suprised to learn how little is actually needed to avoid getting shot. Think about how hard it is to actually hit a moving target in a moving platform. How many factors have to be perfect for it to work? Now, how many factors can you change to spoil their chance of hitting you without resorting to huge energy-sapping left-right high-g break-turns? Less than you would think. Don't think of the guns defensive as an isolated phase of a fight. Think of it as a moderation of your attack plan. Don't do any e-wasting move without a plan on how to get the most from it. Do as little as possible to get the maximum result.

I'll give you a suggestion to try out. Lets modify you're existing guns-defense: which appears to consist of a hard right break turn, then when you notice the other guy isnt turning with you, you hard break back into him. While this may seem instinctive, its far from optimal. Firstly, think about what you're actually doing here? You're actually attempting to cause your opponent to overshoot so you can take advantage of him being in front of your guns for a change, right?? Well, unless you can cause the overshoot AND be in a position to take advantage of it, its fairly pointless. So lets modify your tactic to be: 1, more 3-dimensional, and 2, to take advantage of some known facts (specifically, that fast aircraft cant turn as tight as slower aircraft).
Making your move  more 3 dimensional means lets use both the horizontal plane and vertical planes all at the same time. Eg dont just break in one plane, use both, and constantly change the plane of maneuver. This makes you a whole heap harder to anticipate and pull lead on to hit - if not next to impossible. A barrel-roll is a good example. When you (in your film) break just in the horiz plane, you are turning away from your target and opening up distance. Distance you have to close back again if you want to have a crack at him as he overshoots. Since you have such a tiny window to fire (<400) you cant afford to get too far away from them.
Also, if you're being attacked from the rear by a faster BnZ type attacker you can be fairly certain that an overshoot *will* occur, and you just have to avoid eating lead and be in a good position to take advantage of the overshoot. You dont have to break hard and wait to see if they will overshoot before reversing, you pretty much know they will, so you can reverse much earlier than you think, as long as you out of plane with your attacker.  Earlier you reverse the closer you stay to them, and the closer you will be when they pop out in front - perfect for showering them with lead. So stay as close as you can while still avoiding copping some lead yourself and plan for the overshoot and be ready to squirt some lead out. Too early tho and you'll either tip your hand or turn right in front of them.
So, my suggestion is to do a mild break left (or right) which will encourage the enemy to pull lead to try shoot you. Now they are in lead-pursuit and closing the gap extremely fast, now just level off and pull up simultaneously and then roll back the other direction with some elevator to perform a barrel-roll around your attacker. The trick is to not do it as separate steps, but all as one smooth counter. It will be a break followed by a barrel-roll in the opposite direction to the break. There's next to no way he can follow if hes faster than you, let alone pull enough lead to shoot. Next is the tricky bit, aligning your nose to point where you anticipate he will fly through and get it there. This is another out-of-plane maneuver.  Now your staying close, but avoiding getting, shot. You're already planned and executing your offensive all at the same time. You've set the trap and they've walked into it. If your lucky you will score a hit or saddle up. This is an example - not the best, but should point you in the right direction:
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=barellroll_defense.zip


Ok, also your gunnery let you down in a couple of places too. There's no easy fix for this except practice, practice, and more practice. If you're up for a challenge, try turning tracers off. Now you will go through gunnery hell for a few weeks of totally missing everything, but it will come right again - trust me, and then some! When i did this years ago, i couldnt hit a thing, but slowly it got back to normal, and then surpassed my old percentages and has really helped my gunnery HEAPS. YMMV, and you need a lot of perseverance.

Lastly, you simply aren't being aggressive enough. There was at least 2 occasions in the film where you could have followed the mustang up and got a good shot off but you didnt. Knowing when you can and when you cant push the attack comes down to how well you can judge relative E stakes. When you know you have the E to push home a kill, do it. But if you dont know that you do have enough, then its a wasted oppurtunity - one that you may regret. Experience tends to lead to better E 'reading' skills.
You wore him down, but failed to push home the hard won gains, through engineering an overshoot you could have capitalized on.

Heres a film of me in a P40 being picked on by a FW190-D with more E.
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=P40Evs190D.zip
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Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 07:13:54 PM »
thanks guys i was new to p40 and was learning the vert manuvering speed, yuor right i was doing flat reversals my usual reverse is more a light turn to the side and then roll over like the start of rolling scisor which i had him in at one point butl ost contact, a lot of the time i thought maybe i could follow him up but didnt want to stall below him, even tried showing him my belly a couple of times to get em to come back down lol

your right about my gunnery i have a lot of trouble when they start jinking but man this guy warped so bad i mised sevral shots i should have had.

for me the hardest time to hit someone is when im on their six and they arent turning if they fly straight i have trouble hitting maybe my nose bounces to much i tired scaling my stick but didnt like the response. so now i have no scaling and been playing that way forever with a saitek 290

and yea i was finding that i was turning to far but i was trying to keep my inital turns light and then tighten up. i have more luck reversing in 190 lol
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline humble

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2007, 09:19:30 PM »
I got a chance to watch about 1/2 the clip.....

Heres what I saw (without duplicating spatula's comments etc as best I can)....

1st two very good things

Your use of views is good for a newer player, you have the con in sight a fair amount of the time.

You display a good use of out of plane manuevering on a couple of evasives. This is a big building block.

Now that we've gotten the good out of the way lets focus on the bad.

All to often your flying totally flat...

When the pony was 1st coming in you should have had the nise slightly up. Then your "break turn" should have been a low yoyo....leading to a hi yoyo reverse. your goal is to slowly build E and take the fight up as best you can.

Your totally reactive to the inbound con and your evasives are a bit late (and predictable over time). Again flying in "3D" will give you more options.

The two things above create a lack of creativity and little chance to build a counter attack. A good offensive starts with good defense. Learn to use the vertical...even subtle high & low yoyo's would have bought you additional E and alt which might have let you finish the pony before he got out of range.

Currently your flying a "T" with most moves on the horizontal axis. Think "X" more....go back and look at the clip of spatula and I again just looking at both of us vs the horizon line. The pony is normally reversing low to try and "explode" up thru and i'm reversing hi looking to dip down and "zoom" over. Neither of us is giving E away...both trying to either use or save what we have...

Any time your turning flat your burning E you cant reclaim.

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Offline sgt203

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2007, 11:39:09 PM »
Im am by no means any ace and am unable to watch AH files on this computer but I think this is what Spatula is talking about.

I made this film for my squad in mpeg format as some are having a problem with the film viewers.

The first part had nothing to do with dogfighting but you will see the high F6F in the first part of the film.

I was able to keep track of this contact and viewed him diving on me from a considerable distance.

Knowing he was carrying way more E than me I knew there would be no way he could turn with me. But as Spatula said avoiding his guns would have been easy but getting guns on him immediately is the hard part.

I this instance upon the con getting to 800 out I used a simple aileron roll to avoid a long range shot and to actually slow my plane a bit to bring him in closer.

I then used a shallow turning dive to force him into a position where he was going to overshoot. Once I knew he was in the process of overshooting I pulled into a barrel roll in the opposite direction, in effect circling up and over his line of flight. Then rolled upright for a quick shot.

Although the initial shot did not down the con I was in control of the fight from this point on and was working from his six.

BTW any comments or critiques on this would also be appreciated (not to hijack this thread)..



http://media.putfile.com/F6F-5-Hellcat


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« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 11:42:42 PM by sgt203 »

Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 09:25:41 AM »
very apreciated guys good information from all of u.

i guess im gonna try getting ack ack's stick scale againd and im gonna practice that some more, ill take up a p40 again cause folks love to jump em lol
ur right i was flying the t a lot but in the second section i did get him in rolling scisors, i felt real good after this fight because i survived and managed to land some hits rarely do i get shots at all after reversing.
till i watched the film from the ponys point of veiw and saw what he was doing. i did figure out it was a newer player after about his third pass because i pulled the same reversals three times and he didnt change tactics.

if i had been in the ponys positon i probably would ahve slowed down for the shots more, choped throttle a little and worked the rudder barell roll to slow it down. not saying i would have killed me though gunnery aint my thing now i guess lol  

i figured a better stick would have done something liek that and killed me when i rollled over i was predictable.

thanks again :D
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 11:20:26 AM »
i would realy love to get in the ta i havent had a one on one yet, ill be on tonight i fly off peak 10pm to5 or 6 am eastern us time.  sometimes im on in the morning when i get home from work, 8am or sometimes when i get up 5pm-8pm.

if ur available spatula id like a session very much,  

ps. turned tracers off, shot all my ammo for one kill gonna take some getting used to :D
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline Spatula

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 04:00:05 PM »
Tuesday mornings US Eastern at 5am (i think - as DLST time is stuffing up our time differences at the moment) is my usual open training session - its pretty empty usually around then with only a small handful of people around, but that's where/when you'll find me. Unless you want to arrange something different? I'll check the time differences at the moment - there may be a slot this sunday morning your time.
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Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 11:02:52 PM »
rgr that im off work usualy on wendsday and thurdsday morning i would have come tuesday morn but was still at work, its confusing going in at ten on monday and getting off at seven tuesday lol
flying as Marvin57
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  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline Spatula

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2007, 01:37:49 AM »
What about Sunday morning? 3am Eastern is good for me. Thats 8pm Sunday my time - so perfect for me.
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Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2007, 12:05:28 PM »
yea ill be at work. i mainly only play off peak on my off days, i don't know what time that transfers to there um, lets ses on wendsday mornings and thursday mornings, i guess that would be 8pm on wendsday night and thursday night for you.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline Spatula

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2007, 04:10:59 PM »
Ok, thurs is good - make it 3am this thurs?

email me spatula [at] hitechcreations [dot] com if this doesnt suit and we can see if we can work something else out.

cheers.
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Offline goober69

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p40n vs p51d film.
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2007, 08:27:25 PM »
that would be perfect 3am thursday ill make sure im home well i got no where else to go eh!!!
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V