Author Topic: It's Like the Hydra  (Read 10715 times)

Offline Tigeress

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #345 on: November 05, 2007, 12:45:47 PM »
President Bush's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative:

A Clean and Secure Energy Future

"A simple chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free. Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy."

— President Bush, State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003

http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/presidents_initiative.html

I believe when enough immediate importance is placed on accelerating this, we will be independent of foreign oil dependence for the security of the nation.

There has been too much money to be made in oil to have placed national security needs over the easy money of oil.

We went to the moon in 1969 because it was deemed a national priority to do so.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 01:16:07 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Tigeress

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GM vice chairman wants mass produced hydrogen cars by 2011
« Reply #346 on: November 05, 2007, 01:06:49 PM »
"Whether or not we get a hydrogen infrastructure, it doesn't matter, because China will be the first hydrogen economy." -General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz

following from: http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6000.html

Publication Date:14-September-2006
11:00 PM US Eastern Timezone  
Source:Thomas Watkins-Associated Press  

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles could hit showrooms as early as 2011, General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said Thursday.

Calling the effort a "moon shot," Lutz said it is vital the world's largest auto maker commits to the new technology, so it can win back its reputation as an innovator and design leader.

"This is to re-establish our technological credentials with the American public and the American media," said Lutz, who spoke at the military base where the company was delivering a hydrogen concept car that will be test-driven by Marines in coming months.

"And it has a huge re-moralizing effect in the company as our people see how serious we are," he added.

Up to $9 billion has been freed up as a result of General Motors' recent restructuring, Lutz said. The company now has more money to invest in hydrogen fuel cell-powered cars, which will form an important part of the auto giant's long-term economic recovery plan.

The company, which is suffering from declining U.S. market share at the hands of its Asian competitors, lost $8.6 billion in 2005 amid high healthcare, pension, labor and materials costs.

"We are going to make General Motors what it was in the '50s and '60s again," Lutz said.

Lutz acknowledged GM lost a technological edge to Toyota by failing to recognize the potential of gasoline-hybrid technology, and promised that won't happen again with hydrogen cars. He did not specify how much cash would be channeled toward production of the new cars or how many vehicles would be produced. But a company said GM has so far spent $1 billion on the technology and will spend a similar amount by 2010.

Virtually every automaker is conducting tests of hydrogen-powered vehicles, which have received support from a five-year, $1.2 billion hydrogen initiative first announced by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union address.

German automaker BMW AG said Tuesday it will introduce the world's first hydrogen-powered luxury performance car.

The pollution-free technology holds the potential of zero emissions - except steam - and a sustainable source of energy produced when hydrogen and oxygen are mixed. Carbon emissions are reduced to zero, provided the energy used to produce hydrogen comes from renewable sources.

Lt. Col. Jay Malik said the Marine Corps is looking at alternative fuels for environmental reasons, and because hydrogen-powered cars could simplify logistical planning on the battlefield, where the distribution of gasoline can be challenging.

Many obstacles exist before fuel-cell cars hit showrooms, mainly a lack of hydrogen fueling stations. California leads the nation in installing hydrogen fueling stations, Lutz said, currently with 31 around the state.

But even if energy companies fail to boost hydrogen production, Lutz said GM would still have a potentially large international market share.

"Whether or not we get a hydrogen infrastructure, it doesn't matter, because China will be the first hydrogen economy," he said.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 01:10:02 PM by Tigeress »

Offline lazs2

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #347 on: November 05, 2007, 02:41:01 PM »
If you are suggesting that the government get involved with hydrogen research in any big way then we do not agree.

I simply don't think it is viable until we have an energy source that is free or... very cheap.   I am not saying that it won't work in the future.. hope it does.   I am saying that we are a ways off and that for short trips..  electric cars that get free recharges may make more sense.

I want the free market to fill the vacuum that 100 buck a barrel oil will cause.  

lazs

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #348 on: November 05, 2007, 03:11:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. try to keep up.   I was replying to her.    


I can at least keep up with the fact that this is a public forum, though I'm sure that's difficult for some to comprehend. :D

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #349 on: November 05, 2007, 03:29:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
If you are suggesting that the government get involved with hydrogen research in any big way then we do not agree.

I simply don't think it is viable until we have an energy source that is free or... very cheap.   I am not saying that it won't work in the future.. hope it does.   I am saying that we are a ways off and that for short trips..  electric cars that get free recharges may make more sense.

I want the free market to fill the vacuum that 100 buck a barrel oil will cause.  

lazs


The government is already involved... a republican congress and presidential administration saw to that.

Free or cheap fuel is equiv to free or cheap medical care.

I agree it would be nice for both to be free or cheap. Doubt we will ever see it though. Too much money to be made in both.

The national interests for hydrogen is real... as is independence from foreign oil. The two are thus linked.

I notice gasoline is going up by leaps and bounds again... sigh

If I could buy a hydrogen generator for the house and a hydrogen powered car, I would do it today and drive right by the gas stations.

Did you know the space shuttle main engines are fueled by liquid hydrogen and oxygen? Plus, hydrogen cell power generators are used on board the shuttle?

Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy per unit of weight than gasoline and 3 to 4 times less energy per unit of volume than gasoline.

I read all that in the links I provided.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 03:36:24 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Jackal1

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #350 on: November 05, 2007, 07:32:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Thank you for the map, Jackal dear.

TIGERESS


Oh it`s no problem......sweetie. :)
I just noticed you had your directions a little screwed up and had overlooked where we were located military wise.
I am here to help.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #351 on: November 05, 2007, 08:05:39 PM »
I`m not sure what the current regulations are regarding limits, but I am pretty sure a game warden could get a promotion if he ran upon this. :)
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #352 on: November 05, 2007, 11:16:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
If I could buy a hydrogen generator for the house and a hydrogen powered car, I would do it today and drive right by the gas stations.

Did you know the space shuttle main engines are fueled by liquid hydrogen and oxygen? Plus, hydrogen cell power generators are used on board the shuttle?

Hydrogen has 3 to 4 times more energy per unit of weight than gasoline and 3 to 4 times less energy per unit of volume than gasoline.

TIGERESS


Too bad hydrogen is not an energy source.  It is a storage method.

If you had a hydrogen generator at your house and powered it off the grid, you would be powering your car with 50+% coal, about 10% nuclear, 5 or 10% Hydroelectric, 1 or 2 % wind and solar and other renewables, and the balance from Natural Gas and Oil.

If you convert energy from gas to electricity as we do at our plant, about 50% is a pretty good conversion percentage.  Then you convert electricity to hydrogen at your house, and maybe another 50% loss in that conversion process.  Then when you convert hydrogen to electricity again, the fuel cell gets 50 to 70% efficiency, an the other losses make your vehicle maybe 30 to 50% efficient.

So, 0.50 x 0.50 x 0.40 = 0.10 or 10% energy efficient, and still pumping out the carbon into the environment, just at the electric utility instead of your exhaust pipe.  

And that 50% is at a gas fired steam regenerated power plant.  Coal plants are more about 30-35% heat efficient.

Your present car, is probably about 20 to 25% heat efficient.  The best diesels are about 50% efficient.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline x0847Marine

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #353 on: November 06, 2007, 12:16:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Foriegn policy for any country never deals with the "average people". Foriegn policy deals with governments, not "average people". :rolleyes:


Its not about dealing with, rather disrupting the average persons day.

Remember the UNICEF report, half a million children under 5 died in Iraq thanks to US sponsored sanctions?.. and caused "..massive impoverishment.."

Then Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said on 60 min "... the price is worth it."?

Ya think those half a million folks, average ones, had their day disrupted when their kids rotted to death? and their quality of life took a giant crap? story

I mean whatever, they're 'only' 3rd world savage extremest who hate freedom, right? thry look like terrorists, are rude at 7-11, smell, and cant speak English... they should be begging us all knowing modern people to stay and show them how to make a flush toilet, use fire, and wear shoes. Screw those Geico cavemen looking freaks, the more filthy rock chucking Iraqi kids that rot to death, the fewer insurgents there will be to summarily slaughter on the road to victory!!!!

Offline Torque

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #354 on: November 06, 2007, 06:28:31 AM »
these faux news paper patriots crack me up tho...

the "we're are fighting them over there so they won't follow us home"  is a wolfowitz sound bite  ... the man hasn't been right on one thing regarding iraq and can't even hold a position of trust due to ethical reasons.

and the "they hate us for our freedom" is another bunch or crap... freak'n sheeples to the shears herd mentality.
 
michael scheuer keeps repeating that ron paul is the worst thing that could happen to bin laden... why because bin laden has said all along it's the foreign policies and nothing else. they attacked you because you meddled too much in their domestic affairs... at least ron paul is one of the last few honest americans to acknowledge that fact.

i guess you guys just don't get it... after uncle sam went around the globe molesting and subverting democracies and embezzling their resources at the behest of corporations... did you not think once the skill was honed it wouldn't be used domestically.... daft as can be.

the neo-conners have turned iraq into a cash boondoggle.... building 14 new bases in iraq and a billion dollar embassy that is larger than the vatican... such tards.

bleeding the empire dry... well you got the corporatocracy you so richly deserve.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #355 on: November 06, 2007, 06:38:33 AM »
I will be happy when people learn how to spell Fox.

Faux is getting as old as Limbaugh not calling newpapers by their real names.

But I can see how people call Fox more biased than other sources.

The CNN political page presently has the following bullet points to choose from:

-Poll: Clinton's support slips
-Biden wouldn't be Clinton VP
-Obama missing Senate votes
-Clinton's rivals smell blood
-Clinton denies delaying documents
-Unions back Clinton, Edwards
-Rivals take aim at Clinton
-Clinton rivals seek opening

No bias there:  no Ron Paul, Thompson, Giuliani campaign news I guess.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 06:42:02 AM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Jackal1

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Its Like the Hydra
« Reply #356 on: November 06, 2007, 06:46:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I will be happy when people learn how to spell Fox.

Faux is getting as old as Limbaugh not calling newpapers by their real names.

But I can see how people call Fox more biased than other sources.

The CNN political page presently has the following bullet points to choose from:

-Poll: Clinton's support slips
-Biden wouldn't be Clinton VP
-Obama missing Senate votes
-Clinton's rivals smell blood
-Clinton denies delaying documents
-Unions back Clinton, Edwards
-Rivals take aim at Clinton
-Clinton rivals seek opening
-VOSS to be appointed head of CIA

No bias there:  no Ron Paul, Thompson, Giuliani campaign news I guess.


Fixed.
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Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #357 on: November 06, 2007, 08:02:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Too bad hydrogen is not an energy source.  It is a storage method.

If you had a hydrogen generator at your house and powered it off the grid, you would be powering your car with 50+% coal, about 10% nuclear, 5 or 10% Hydroelectric, 1 or 2 % wind and solar and other renewables, and the balance from Natural Gas and Oil.

If you convert energy from gas to electricity as we do at our plant, about 50% is a pretty good conversion percentage.  Then you convert electricity to hydrogen at your house, and maybe another 50% loss in that conversion process.  Then when you convert hydrogen to electricity again, the fuel cell gets 50 to 70% efficiency, an the other losses make your vehicle maybe 30 to 50% efficient.

So, 0.50 x 0.50 x 0.40 = 0.10 or 10% energy efficient, and still pumping out the carbon into the environment, just at the electric utility instead of your exhaust pipe.  

And that 50% is at a gas fired steam regenerated power plant.  Coal plants are more about 30-35% heat efficient.

Your present car, is probably about 20 to 25% heat efficient.  The best diesels are about 50% efficient.


Hi Holden,

Great post!!!

Hydrogen power is easily stored and portable.
Electricity is not that easy to store in large quanties or we would already be driving electric vechicles.

Yes... hydrogen is an energy carrier, as is electricity, when used to run a hydrogen fuel cell that produces electricity.

Even electricity is not an energy source... it simply is a  energy carrier  (transfer mechanism) from a mechanical to electrical power converter; an energy carrier from a source... such as fossil fuel or gravity from dams.

Correct me if I am wrong, but... Hydrogen, when directly burned, is a source of energy.

Thus, Hydrogen can be used both ways... as an energy source or as an energy carrier.

Use of fossil fueled power plants such as coal to break down H2O into its constituent atoms can be made to burn quite cleanly if done right... a single point of pollution control vise millions of points of control in the form of automobiles burning fossil fuels.

Hydrogen burns well... ask anyone smoking around a charging battery that set off a hydrogen mini-explosion or anyone who has watched a space shuttle launch. Course the shuttle has solid propellent boosters... I am talking the main engines.

We have a lot of coal in this country.

In the future it may be possible to simply pipe water into a power plant from which pure hydrogen and pure oxygen is extracted and, in combination, is burned to drive steam turbines to drive electric generators and have electricity come out the other side.

The energy of hydrogen is high.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 09:32:44 AM by Tigeress »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #358 on: November 06, 2007, 08:14:37 AM »
torque... ok..you hate bush and anyone who isn't a liberal.   you don't get a vote here tho.. too bad...sooo sad.

tigress..  I don't want the government involved in energy or in medical.  If ron paul was honest.. he would say he doesn't either.

We can have cheap power and will.  solar will happen..  it has no choice.  the free market will provide.  as I said.. it is getting cheaper and cheaper to have free electricity.. you could plug an electric car into your home for free and do about 90% of your errands with it.   You can do that right now.  It just costs a little more than it is worth... not near as bad as hydrogen tho.

as for medical.. we can have very cheap medical.. we just need to roll it back to 1950   we don't allow any medicine or procedure that didn't exist in 1950.

living long and healthy costs money.. how long and healthy you want to live?

lazs

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #359 on: November 06, 2007, 08:26:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
torque... ok..you hate bush and anyone who isn't a liberal.   you don't get a vote here tho.. too bad...sooo sad.

tigress..  I don't want the government involved in energy or in medical.  If ron paul was honest.. he would say he doesn't either.

We can have cheap power and will.  solar will happen..  it has no choice.  the free market will provide.  as I said.. it is getting cheaper and cheaper to have free electricity.. you could plug an electric car into your home for free and do about 90% of your errands with it.   You can do that right now.  It just costs a little more than it is worth... not near as bad as hydrogen tho.

as for medical.. we can have very cheap medical.. we just need to roll it back to 1950   we don't allow any medicine or procedure that didn't exist in 1950.

living long and healthy costs money.. how long and healthy you want to live?

lazs


Hi Lazs,

I tend to agree with your line of thinking.

I believe if we went back to 1950 level of medical care the cost would still be the same as it is for 2007 level of medical care, more or less.

This issue is corporate profits at the expense of the consumer who is on the ropes when sick.

I don't want to live forever nor extend my life at the cost of a million a year with 90% of that million per year going to corporate profits. That’s like being held up at the point of a gun, IMV.

I am not afraid to die. Dying is a part of life. Where was I before I was born? …living within the chromosomes of my ancestors with no self-awareness... same as dead far as I am concerned.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 08:39:10 AM by Tigeress »