General Climate Discussion

[john9001]

Originally posted by AKH
You are obviously smarter than everyone else.  

if that was for me , thank you, you are very perceptive.

[Angus]

Originally posted by john9001
yes, growing food is a bad thing,:rolleyes:

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but the shrinkage of the arctic is not regional but global?

Now I know. You live on Mars.

BTW, Martian atmosphere is mostly co2. Our knowledge however of atmospheric fluctuations there is very little. But we know that without the co2 it would be colder. But the atmosphere is just very very thin....

We do know the solar activity though (the part skipped in the "global warming swindle" were the last years, which are low in solar activity), and we do have quite some measurements in our stratosphere, which is above greenhouse effect. So, in short, the stratosphere is cold(er?), the solar activity is lower, our CO2 rises and so do our temps.

How about you moving to Venus John? Interesting greenhouse effects there...
(Although I will leave you to ponder on one other possible reason for Venus being hotter than Mercury, which is closer to the sun)

[john9001]

recent history will show that periods of warming have been good for civilization and periods of cold were bad, i realize you hate the warming because your igloo is melting, but you must adapt, build a mud and wattle hut with a thatched roof.

and plant some potatoes.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
recent history will show that periods of warming have been good for civilization and periods of cold were bad, i realize you hate the warming because your igloo is melting, but you must adapt, build a mud and wattle hut with a thatched roof.

and plant some potatoes.

The seaweed is always greener
In somebody else's lake
You dream about going up there
But that is a big mistake

Just look at the world around you
Right here on the ocean floor
Such wonderful things surround you
What more is you lookin' for?

Under the sea, under the sea
Darlin' it's better down where it's wetter
Take it from me.
Up on the shore they work all day
Out in the sun they slave away
While we devoting full time to floating
Under the sea

Down here all the fish is happy
As off through the waves they roll
The fish on the land ain't happy
They sad 'cause they in the bowl

But fish in the bowl is lucky
They in for a worser fate
One day when the boss get hungry
Guess who's gon'be on the plate

Under the sea, under the sea
Nobody beat us, fry us
And eat us in fricassee
We what the land folks loves to cook
Under the sea we off the hook
We got no troubles, like is the bubbles

Under the sea, under the sea
Under the sea, under the sea
Since life is sweet here
We got the beat here naturally
Even the sturgeon and the ray
They get the urge 'n' start to play
We got the spirit, you got to hear it
Under the sea

The newt play the flute
The carp play the harp
The plaice play the bass
And they soundin' sharp
The bass play the brass
The chub play the tub
The fluke is the duke of soul
The ray he can play
The lings on the strings
The trout rockin' out
The blackfish, she sings
The smelt and the sprat
They know where it's at
And oh, that blowfish blow

Under the sea, under the sea
Under the sea, under the sea
When the sardine begin the beguine
It's music to me
What do they got, a lot of sand
We got a hot crustaceuan band

Each little clam here
Know how to jam here
Under the sea
Each little slug here
Cutting a rug here
Under the sea

Each little snail here
Know how to wail here
That's why it's hotter
Under the water
Ya, we in luck here
Down in the muck here
Under the sea

[john9001]

yes arlo, the answer to everything is a song, because songwriters have the answers to everything.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
yes arlo, the answer to everything is a song, because songwriters have the answers to everything.

Of course you don't get it. What answer you got other than sticking your head in the sand and flipping off the world?

Are you one of those who have a thing against PBS because it falls outside your agenda? If so you missed a recent show which documented a trip to Alaska by a group comprised of evangelical Christians bent on proving there was no global warming crisis and scientists providing up-close physical evidence.

I was surprised. I expected those who were convinced to stay that way no matter what. But when the evangelicals saw the glacier mass that receeded 3 miles in a year's time (it had no appreciable recession in thousands of years before) and watched a house fall into the ocean before their very eyes (an entire village is now having to be relocated to an entirely different climate at the cost of millions) they actually decided that global warming was indeed a crisis that required not denial and bleeting about the scientific community going all anti-capitalistic and all but any and everything they could do to help.

Go figure. Damned socialists.

[john9001]

arlo, at one time the glacial ice cape covered half of north america, yeah it's a bad thing it receded.

warm is good. cold is bad.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
arlo, at one time the glacial ice cape covered half of north america, yeah it's a bad thing it receded.

warm is good. cold is bad.

We're not talking millennial changes, John. (That's never been a good agenda argument.) We're talking major recent and destructive climate changes.

Methinks you need to make the trip to Alaska. Or watch PBS while setting aside agenda for awhile.

[Angus]

Originally posted by john9001
recent history will show that periods of warming have been good for civilization and periods of cold were bad, i realize you hate the warming because your igloo is melting, but you must adapt, build a mud and wattle hut with a thatched roof.

and plant some potatoes.

Not sure where you're getting here, but in the hot and carbon-infested times of earth's history there was NO CIVILIZATION. There was hardly any intelligent life as well.
Civilization starts at the end of last iceage. But the globe wasn't covered in Ice at the time, - there were some very nice places.
And FYI, I don't hate the warming. In my place it's actually a nice thing, since we are not dependant upon the ice, and have our own agriculture.
FYI, Iceland is an old culture from Viking origin, with a large connection with the sea (both exploring and fishing). We never lived in igloos, and when our ancestors sailed to America more than 1000 years ago they found no human architecture except tents or such like, where the inhabitants were half naked anyway......
And we do indeed grow potatoes, as well as barley and beef, cabbage and turnips, carrots and so on. Since we adapt very quickly, we already figured out the warming instead of squibbling about it, and are now trying on with wheat for instance, - which would never grow before. Rhye would do so as well, but more arid climate along with several weeks every autumn of 20 m/s windspeed however put our limit. Corn would now grow for the sake of the temperature (for silage) but the wind will shred it.
So, please get real, and skip your igloo jokes will you.It only exposes ignorance about Northern territories. Or are you going to ask me if I am sulking because the iceberg from my per penguin melted away ?

[john9001]

history shows that times of warming have been times of growth, prosperity, abundant crops and peace, periods of cold were times of failed crops, famine, war, disease.

the climate is changing, i my opinion for the good, you can adapt or you can cry about it.

but you can't change it.



edit, Angus, the igloo thing was a joke, don't take it serously.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
history shows that times of warming have been times of growth, prosperity, abundant crops and peace, periods of cold were times of failed crops, famine, war, disease.

the climate is changing, i my opinion for the good, you can adapt or you can cry about it.

but you can't change it.

As long as you're comfortable* you'll sing the same song (what were we saying `bout songs, earlier?).

Lemmings are lemmings. Sometimes they just get so bored being crowded by other lemmings they just run off a cliff .... along with similarly minded lemmings. And they're due their opinions, I reckon. The human species does things (sometimes for good - sometimes for bad - sometimes they even change their mind when the evidence is unvoidable). They may even help make changes for the betterment of the lemmings. Go figure. You're, personally, off the hook, I suppose. Your children may not be. They'll doubtlessly praise your foresight and unselfish nature.

*Some living things take longer for their central nervous system to register.

[Angus]

BTW, the Icecaps are older than mankind. As a phenomen, but some of the ice still there is still mucholder than Homo sapiens, Cromagnon and even Neanderthal.
Strikes me odd to maybe see  the N-cap disappearing within a generation.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by john9001
history shows that times of warming have been times of growth, prosperity, abundant crops and peace, periods of cold were times of failed crops, famine, war, disease.

the climate is changing, i my opinion for the good, you can adapt or you can cry about it.

but you can't change it.



edit, Angus, the igloo thing was a joke, don't take it serously.

I'm looking forward to 70-80's year long up here in Michigan, we shall be dancing in the streets, cuz we got water:)

Now those Florida folk sweltering in 100 degree minimums will not cry about it i'm sure.

shamus

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by lazs2
yet... you claim that the reset button was hit.. and.. man was not even here.. we had nothing to do with it.

Show me some proof that the GLOBAL temp has gone up in the last 7 years.. that the US temp has in the last few decades...   How can this be?

If co2.. if man made co2 is heating the earth..  then why is it not doing so like the models predicted?  we are at almost 80% of a doubling this century but no ten degrees warmer.  how can that be?    

Suns activity is not just solar flares.. it is solar winds.. It has always led the temp changes while co2 lagged the changes.   co2 is not leading temp change now.  solar wind is at a high now but sunspot activity has calmed.. still higher than the 40's and 50's tho when we had a global cooling..

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/sun/wind.html

Our universe is heating... mars is heating.. what is causing that?  why would not the same things that cause that cause us to heat?  

moray... get over yourself.. the fact remains that you are not the most credentialed person on either side of the debate... certainly I am not either.. nor is angus..  but.. we don't claim to be.    

There are people who know more about it than you with better credentials who think you are wrong.  

coal fires are both natural and man made.

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/~prakash/coalfires/coalfires.html

just one countries coal fires are more co2 than all the cars and trucks in the US

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030215coalenviro4p4.asp

sooooo.. if co2 is the problem then why even care about anything till we can put out the coal fires?    should be simple enough for a race who can control nature eh?

lazs

#1.  Yep the reset button was hit.  It was hit in the form of a 2 mile wide asteroid running into what is now the Yucatan peninsula at approximately 17,500 miles per hour.   You want to hit that button again?

#2...Lockwood and Frölich, 2007, find that there "is considerable evidence for solar influence on the Earth’s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the Earth’s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures".
 
3#...darkening of the Martian surface may have slowly warmed the planet over the past 20 years. Based on a model of the Red Planet's climate, researchers report that the brightness or darkness of its sands have a strong effect on its atmospheric temperature. They found that the heat absorbed by dark rock kicks up winds that blow away shiny dust, leaving behind even darker rock. But the predicted warming is hard to confirm, researchers say, and could shift with the sands at any time. - Scientific American

Also... show me any climate shift on Venus, which is half again as close as Mars....receives about 250% more solar energy.. and has a thick atmosphere, thereby reacting much faster to any solar forcing...   I'll give you a headstart... there is no climate shift on Venus in progress.... still just how it's been for the past 35 or so years.

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by MORAY37
[B still just how it's been for the past 35 or so years. [/B]

That we've been closely watching... that is.  It seems to me that it would make sense if the sun's getting hotter... a planet closer to the sun would too.  Venus is not.