Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

[JB88]

Originally posted by shamroc
Old Chicago
Big Fred's
Valentino's
and
Godfathers at the airport right before going home

Awesome town - lots of great little "oldtimey taverns" with down to earth people.   CHEAP BEER.... everywhere.

For hangovers, Runza's and Bronco Burger can't be beat.

shamroc

you know it brother.

all on the list of favorites.



of course you are missing "romeos" mexican restaurant.  great crappy enchilladas.  can't go home without eating there.  (used to be called casa de reys in la vista) and spagetti works beer cheese sauce of course...

ii noticed that you didn't mention one steak house.

shame on you.  

[lazs2]

It sounds like bacon frying.. naa.. that ain't quite right...  imagine bacon frying but going by so fast you almost miss it?  hard to describe.   I know the muzzle flash looks like the end of the world and you will never forget it.

tactics have everything to do with it of course.. if all you have is a j frame revolver you might not rush the guy... good idea to get cover take your time in a hurry and get off a shot with a 90% chance of connecting.  figure it all out again after that series of events.

You may or may not hit him.. you may stop him and confuse him.. you may have to move and shoot again... how the hell would I know?   too many variables.   have to take every situation as it comes... one thing for sure.. you are not bound by policy..  you do what works.

lazs

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Phaser11
that you would run away when you are capable of intervening in the slaughter.

We are discussing intervening while armed, not charging a rifleman bare handed.

[shamroc]

Originally posted by Bingolong
What were the 2 30 round clips.

It was a AK family Wasr 10.

It was illegal till recently and the uncle he stole it from is being investigated for the time he purchased it.

Well, regardless of whether it was an SKS or a WASR-10, BOTH are semi-automatic Rifles/Carbines and NOT Assault Rifles.   That was the point - the media is using inaccurate blanket terms to sensationalize the tragedy and use it as propaganda to further political aims.

shamroc

[Maverick]

Well Steve, it's pretty easy to sling words from your nice safe keyboard. It's another to really have a bunch (or just one or two for that matter) of tactically untrained amateurs running around in an uncoordinated move looking for someone they have no description of in a location they do not know about armed with a weapon in a position of superior tactical advantage. Couple that with a very large location filled with people in a full (and justified) panic.

These are not trained people who know what they are doing. Running into the teeth of a dragon to slay it sounds all nice but is pretty darn stupid when you think about it for the average person on the street.

Change the situation to one where they can instantly ID the "bad guy" and have a chance to engage them quickly and effectively and I fully agree with you. Going hunting in a mall isn't that kind of situation.

[lazs2]

none of us know what we would do..  I know I would rather not live with myself if I were armed and did absolutely nothing.   I may not do the bravest of most effective thing but I would do something.   I might for instance.. take one shot from cover at 50 yards with a 2" snubby and duck for better cover...  even that tho.. would probly save some lives.  

I bet I could.. at the very least... shake the sob up.

lazs

[Nefarious]

I don't understand how he could smuggle a rifle of that size into his sweatshirt.

I own a WASR 10, I'm 6' even and I doubt I could fit it into a sweatshirt, a large jacket, maybe, without the magazine in it.

The SKS is longer than a WASR 10, So that would make it more difficult. Unless it was a folder, without a magazine in it (WASR or SKS), I dont see how it could be carried concealed into a public place with scores of people and security cameras. How could someone not see it?

[Slash27]

Originally posted by Bingolong
What were the 2 30 round clips.

It was a AK family Wasr 10.

It was illegal till recently and the uncle he stole it from is being investigated for the time he purchased it.

You have a link to any of this?

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Maverick
Going hunting in a mall isn't that kind of situation.

Mav, we don't often get to choose the ground we fight the bully  on so hunting down a guy w/ a rifle who is shooting from an advantageous position might just be what you are stuck with.  
I'm not advocating suicide.  I'm saying that I feel it is incumbent upon us all to intervene where there is a reasonable chance of helping, sometimes even if there isn't a "reasonable" chance.  
Take a sec to consider these circumstances, all of which are extreme, but what we are discussing is extreme: You turn the corner in your neighborhood and come upon 3 guys pummeling an old women as they try to steal her purse.  The strap is wrapped around her arm and they are beating her in an effort to get it. You are unarmed and alone with no help in sight.  

You:

A: run away.

b: Watch and do nothing, maybe dial 911.

c:  intervene(maybe after calling 911), knowing you are probably going to get thumped but also knowing what is likely be a good beating for you  would maim or kill the old woman.

I'd like to believe that most people would choose C. It's not a "smart" move, but it might be the best for the awful circumstances. I bet you'd chose C.

or

d: you are Nilsen so you stop to help the muggers get the purse off the old ladies arm.    

[B@tfinkV]

i got modded for a rule 5 just for predicting the future of this type of thing?

not sure i understand that skuzzy... but far be it from me to argue with the forum gods, sorry for the hassle.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Maverick
I'm quoting this particular post as it was the starting point for a couple others. Tigress lets talk real world here for a few minutes.

Texas law, which doesn't apply in Omaha Nebraska BTW, is worded in a very nice way. One thing I want to point out is that it will take some court decisions to firm it up. Here is what I am saying. It was quoted that the law allows you to "stand your ground" when faced with a potentially deadly situation. "Stand your ground" does not mean go out looking for a "bad guy". It can be taken to mean defend yourself and others when faced with a threat, not go looking for a threat you are not facing at the time. To do that could be taken as being a vigilante. Removing the duty to retreat does not mean you have been given the option to advance into a situation, it just means you do not have to flee if confronted.

Some other factors here.

This shooting happened in a rather populated place. That means you have to find the suspect in a crowded environment already in a panic mode. Not as easy as it looks on TV especially if he decides to move about concealing the rifle.

The suspect was firing a semi auto rifle. Trying to hunt down a person who has that while you are armed with a pistol is a very very poor tactical choice particularly when you factor the above situation and he has taken a superior tactical position such as an upper floor balcony looking over an open area.

Factor also that you are not trained for this kind of job. That means you have not been taught how and when to move and how to figure an approach to the suspect without being a victim yourself. You also have no additional firepower to call upon to help out and no way to direct help in real time to get the real bad guy.

Consider that the Police, who are called to the area will likely only be told there is some person, unknown description that is shooting people in the mall. Now there you are looking for the bad guy holding a gun. Instead of concentrating on the real bad guy, they are now concentrating on you if they see you first. All kinds of bad things can happen there. Including the bad guy getting away while you are being dealt with.

If the situation is that you are walking along the upper floor balcony and you just happen to see this whackjob start shooting into the crowd, fine, hose him down. You are there, identifying the threat is simple and accurate and you just might have surprise on your side before you pop the first round. I would hope that you shoot accurately and incapacitate him before he can unload on you.

There are any other number of things that can have a bad outcome if you decide you are going to go looking for the bad guy to "save the day".

As another person has stated, redeploy away from the threat. If confronted directly, take action.

Great post Maverick.

Going hunting for bad guys as a civilian with a gun is not smart and I believe in the illegality of that on the grounds of being a self-appointed vigilante is as bad as the bad guys.

Yes, opportunity of surprise multiple shots at close range would be about the only way I could take down a killer like that in the act of slaughter.

I know I am not trained to engage in armed combat and realize it would be foolhearty to do so.

Thank you for your very sage and thoughtful post, dear.

If I did shoot him you can believe I would be ringing up 911 to tell them I was there and what I did to him as soon as possible.

TIGERESS

[SteveBailey]

Well Steve, it's pretty easy to sling words from your nice safe keyboard.

FWIW Mav, I do not consider myself any more or less brave than your average white guy in the US but I have been held at gunpoint at about 5 feet by a person whom I was certain  was going to shoot me. I have also been in a fistfight where my opponent pulled a knife and tried to cut/stab me.  My point is, that to the degree I've just mentioned, I have been under the duress of violence and therefore know how I'd react.

[Bingolong]

Originally posted by shamroc
Well, regardless of whether it was an SKS or a WASR-10, BOTH are semi-automatic Rifles/Carbines and NOT Assault Rifles.   That was the point - the media is using inaccurate blanket terms to sensationalize the tragedy and use it as propaganda to further political aims.

shamroc

btw

 a SKS can be full auto just like a m1 carbine can and it can hold as big as a clip you can find for it.  They make 50 round clips for it that I know.

http://www.rifletech.com/bullpup002.jpg

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Tigeress
Great post Maverick.

 I believe in the illegality of that on the grounds of being a self-appointed vigilante is as bad as the bad guys.


TIGERESS

Tigress, this is incorrect.  You have the legal right to use deadly force in the protection of others from like force.

Edit:  Here is Nebraska's take on it :

Nebraska:  All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others  

[shamroc]

Originally posted by Nefarious
I don't understand how he could smuggle a rifle of that size into his sweatshirt.

I own a WASR 10, I'm 6' even and I doubt I could fit it into a sweatshirt, a large jacket, maybe, without the magazine in it.

The SKS is longer than a WASR 10, So that would make it more difficult. Unless it was a folder, without a magazine in it (WASR or SKS), I dont see how it could be carried concealed into a public place with scores of people and security cameras. How could someone not see it?

According to the NY Daily News, he was also decked out in camo gear complete with buzz-cut.

I'm quite surprised he didn't arouse major suspicion...  Of course, it probably all went down very fast...

shamroc