Author Topic: F4U-1C vs GV's  (Read 2750 times)

Offline lyric1

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« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2008, 03:24:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Lusche
Comparign apples & oranges.
Destroyers are actually not  armored better than a Tiger, which has ALL of it's components protected by a thick armored shell.
The absence of AAA doesn't improve the physical ability of a .50cal round to penetrate armor.

(What's the point in producing heavy tanks when they are pierced by mere machinegun bullets?)
 Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2008, 03:27:39 PM »
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Originally posted by lyric1
Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.


:rofl
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Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #62 on: January 03, 2008, 03:27:43 PM »
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Originally posted by lyric1
Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.


Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong.  .50's will not kill a tank in the game.
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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2008, 03:31:32 PM »
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong.  .50's will not kill a tank in the game.


And surely no a Tiger in real life too. Tanks would have been utterly useless.
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Offline Ghastly

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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2008, 03:51:38 PM »
Just to point out, I was asking about in-game, not real life.  WWII aircraft could potentially have done many things in real life that they were simply to valuable to risk in attempting given the low probability of success.

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Offline Shuffler

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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2008, 04:29:53 PM »
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
Yak-9T come in low and shoot them in the gas tank. Blow them up in 4-5 shots.


Bug if so..... Tiger is diesel.
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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2008, 04:33:21 PM »
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Bug if so..... Tiger is diesel.


No it isnt. Maybach HL 230 P 45, first versions had a weaker Maybach HL 210 P 45. Both are gasoline engines.
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Offline lyric1

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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2008, 04:44:43 PM »
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong.  .50's will not kill a tank in the game.
Agreed I am talking about in real life.

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2008, 04:55:15 PM »
From "Flying Guns World War II. Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45. By Anthony G. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin":


"The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no
surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not
suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and
20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but
insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance.
The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks
but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."


You may also take a look at  "Allied Fighter-Bombers Versus German in North-West Europe 1944-1945: Myths and Realities" by Ian Gooderson, published in Journal of Strategic Studies. 1991, vol. 14, No. 2. Coming basically to the same judgements.


BTW, fighter-bomber pilots claimed MUCH more enemy tanks destroyed than the actually did:

"The evidence gathered by the OR teams indicated that very few tanks
were destroyed by air attack. A British War Office analysis of 223
Panther tanks destroyed in 1944 revealed that only fourteen resulted
from air attack (eleven to RPs and three to aircraft cannon). During
the Mortain battle of 7-10 August, the RAF and USAAF launched
sustained attacks on a German armoured column over a period of six
hours, claiming 252 German tanks destroyed or damaged in nearly 500
sorties. It was subsequently discovered that there had only been a
total of 177 tanks or tank destroyers deployed by the Germans and just
46 of those were lost, of which only nine could be attributed to air
attack (seven to RPs and two to bombs). During the German retreat from
the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391
armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was
examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of
which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack."

Source again: "Flying Guns World War II"
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 05:01:34 PM by Lusche »
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Offline lyric1

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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2008, 05:11:16 PM »
Impressive Lusche as always in regards to your research & data. Mr Celauro may be wrong I can't say for sure it did or didn't happen I can only repeat what he said. That aside for a moment use that depth of knowledge you have & find out if a destroyer could be sunk with 50cal's only, call it a challenge if you will.

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2008, 05:14:45 PM »
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Originally posted by lyric1
That aside for a moment use that depth of knowledge you have & find out if a destroyer could be sunk with 50cal's only, call it a challenge if you will.


Hmm... I have not much knowledge about naval warfare at all. I could imagine it is indeed possible: Bullets raking all over the ship, setting things afire, secondary explosions, gradually reducing the ship into a burning hulk... But I don't know if such a thing ever happened.
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Offline lyric1

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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2008, 06:15:23 PM »
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Originally posted by Lusche
Hmm... I have not much knowledge about naval warfare at all. I could imagine it is indeed possible: Bullets raking all over the ship, setting things afire, secondary explosions, gradually reducing the ship into a burning hulk... But I don't know if such a thing ever happened.
 It did happen & there is gun camera footage of it. Two p47's attack it & they were pilots from the Tuskegee airmen.  Can't find the gun camera footage at the moment so here is a link to stat's of the Tuskegee airmen http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/uploads/stats.pdf

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2008, 08:53:48 PM »
I think I know which camera footage you're talking about. They used it in the HBO movie.
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Offline lyric1

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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2008, 08:56:59 PM »
yes they did.

Offline splitatom

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« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2008, 09:05:39 PM »
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Originally posted by E25280
I got one film from Rifle.  It is actually of him in the MA killing a panzer with the Yak.  Again, he uses a low angle and appears to shoot for the engine box.

After thinking about it, I know I have killed panzers with the 37mm HE on an osti (usually I die long before I can get close enough, but it has happened on occasion), so the fact the Yak can kill them should not have been such a surprise after all.

We didn't actually do any testing against the Tiger.

The Panzer and Ostwind have only 12-15mm armor on top, and 20mm armor in the rear.  Given the Panzer can be killed from the rear, we can assume the Sherman with 19mm armor on top and the T-34 20mm could also be killed with well placed shots from above.  The Tiger has 25mm on the top.  I wonder if that would offer just enough protection to keep it safe?

(Armor values from this site that someone posted a while back.)

i cant get a steap enough angle most rounds amed at the turet they all bounce off especialy shermans and t-34 i have been killed by ricosheying rounds from canons
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