Author Topic: Basic Principles of Divorce Settlements  (Read 1408 times)

Offline BBBB

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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 02:55:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by texasmom
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful or anything.  I have a hard time wrapping my mind around being in a state of mind that would facilitate that kind of drastic act (divorce), or the hate that generally comes along with it.  I do have some very strong opinions about some of the other stuff mentioned in the other posts. I don't think I'll share them though :)


No worries, I was trying to be careful and not make generalities. I understand not all women feel the system is fair and just. I understand not all women exercise the twisting of the system, though their gender.

 However, some do and those are the ones that most of the guys here are venting about. The system is really un-fair when it comes to men and raising children. For some reason the system doesn't think men can do this just as well as women. I think that is wrong.

Offline SD67

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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 04:47:37 PM »
I agree about the misguided belief about men raising kids. I have 3 kids to a previous relationship. The mother is a paranoid schizophrenic who is living with her mother (a very long story) how successfully lobbied for close to $200/week child support when I was working in Queensland. I worked on a semi contract basis as a roadside assistance patrol (RACQ) and even though during the holiday period I could earn in excess of $600 per week, during the of peak periods my earnings on occasion would actually be less than what the CSA demanded. Now my wife has a couple of serious medical conditions that require some at times costly treatment, and this was unacceptable for me. Especially since we did not have access which for some reason the courts granted me rights but the two evil ones have made it logistically infeasible so the only contact I have is letters I write and that is one way traffic so I do not even know if they are even getting to them.
I sent letters but the witch and her parent Doberman somehow won out, so I delivered an ultimatum. Fix it or I go on the carer's pension and they get $10/fortnight.
Well they didn't do so I went to the pension. For two years we did this, we moved to an area where Sarah had close access to her specialists, and we made do living an a caravan park. After our little girl (we also have a son who died in childbirth :() was born I decided it was time to try it out again and sought out work. This time the CSA was remarkably accommodating.  We worked out a manageable payment plan for the arrears which are now totally paid off and now the two dragons on the coast are getting $6.75 per week.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 07:50:08 PM »
Just by scannng through I noted two problems.
The use of the words fair and alimony.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline bustr

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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 08:08:00 PM »
In the USA if your wife initiates the divorce without your knowlege along with getting a restraining order before you get home from work, she can wind up with everything. This is SOP, especially if the wife contacts a womens center for divorce advice. Many husbands unprepaired for the restraining order will screw themsevles by their first minutes of conduct getting home cluless to their wives intentions.

You will have a black mark on your criminal record you didn't know your wife just gave you by getting the restraining order. In divorce court the judge will be looking at your innocent\unknowing violation of that order as willful misconduct and be concerned for your wifes safety. The federal Violence against Women and Childrens Act has enabled the issuing of restraining orders without evidence, just the wifes word. It also presumes husbands guilty without passing through the presumption of innocent till proven guilty, or facing your accusor.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline bustr

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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 12:35:52 AM »
Only in America....

http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Where-Hurts-Take-No-Prisoners-Divorce-Alimony/dp/1593377398

Written by a female divorce lawyer who is a member of NOW.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline BBBB

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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 12:44:05 AM »
There is no way your wife can get a restraining order that fast. She might be able to get a PPO, but in reality she has to go before a judge and show proof that she is in danger.

 A PPO is not supposed to go on your record. Most PPOs are only two week matters, time enough for the court to take a good look at the situation before granting her a full fledged restraining order.

 The laws on PPO vary from state to state, some states a PPO is nothing more than a warning to leave someone alone, they do not take your guns and things like that. In some states a PPO carries just about as much weight at a Restraining order and the Sheriff Dept will come over, take your guns and all that jazz.

 However, you are correct, a woman can go in front of a judge with little to no evidence, just a tearful testimony and slam you with a PPO in a matter of minuets. The whole thing start to finish would take her under 30 mins.

 In contrast getting a PPO on a female..damn near impossible. Moses had an easier time parting the Red Sea. I dated a woman a few years back, got tangled up with her. When I broke it off she went sideways. I came out one morning to find my car trashed among other things.

 I called the police, filed all the proper paper work, went down to the court house to get a PPO. I took me nearly all day and a favor having to be called in on my behalf by a long time friend of the family and a local judge, before the judge here in Cobb county granted me a PPO against her.

 I got a 30 day PPO. It did me practically no good. She violated it a week later, when I called the police they gave her a stern talking to and cut her loose. Had the roles been reversed I would have been in handcuffs on the way to the county most likely.

Offline BBBB

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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 12:47:11 AM »
Quote
In Hit Him Where It Hurts, acclaimed matrimonial attorney Sherri Donovan shows you how to take the offensive in the bloody game we call divorce.


See thats just it, these divorce attorneys think this is a game. That it is a sport. This is someones lively hood we are talking about. That is hardly a game. It sickens me that people can make money like this.

Offline Wes14

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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 12:47:56 AM »
Hmm.. not to sound heartless...

but this reminds me of that one Guns and Roses song. What was it called, "I used to love her?" :confused:
Warning! The above post may induce: nausea, confusion, headaches, explosive diarrhea, anger, vomiting, and whining. Also this post may not make any sense, or may lead to the hijack of the thread.

-Regards,
Wes14

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2008, 01:36:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BBBB
Your joking right? Maybe in your country, over here lawyers make more than enough money to make it well, well, worth it. I have a few family attorneys in my family. They are all about the money, they have a ton of it.
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Oh, I make money alright. I bill my clients ~200 USD/Hour. Its still not worth it. You have no idea what this work is like.

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 A system can be fair, flexible and still be simple to understand. The only argument I have ever heard from a Lawyer for justification of their profession is the complexity of the legal system. That seems to be the old fall back for lawyers.
[/b]

LOL really? You would hear the same thing from a doctor. They spend roughly the same amount of time to learn their profession as we do. Still I doubt you would want to get surgery from a wal-mart employee...

The law has evolved over hundreds of years into what it is today. There is a reason for that. The law has to ensure equality, predictability, fairness, and it has to be written in a way so people can apply it to every possible situation.

Quote

 The system does not have to be as simple as you pointed out. You took the words "simple" and "streamlined" and dumbed the down to a school grade level to prove your point. In reality if judges were allowed to really exercise moral judgment, instead of following a complex worded book to come up with a ruling, the system would be streamlined, simple and for the most part fair.


What makes you think that? If we had a system where we let the judges use their own "moral compass" to exercise "moral judgement" the system would be arbitrary, unfair and a complete nightmare. It would all be up to the judge, and if he had a different opinion of whats right and wrong, then you would be completely screwed. There would be no way to predict the outcome of a trial, it would all depend on the mood of the judge on that day.

Offline Thruster

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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2008, 06:55:01 AM »
Alimony in this day and age is just stupid. Pre-nups should be mandatory documentation for any marriage license application. Custody should be granted with no regard for traditional or standardized formulas. There's enough data out there now to determine where the best interests of the children lie. We're just coming around to understanding how wrong we have been for all these years.

I have always said that two professions we as a society could easily do without are lawyers and tax preparers. We can easily alter our codes and statutes to make those disciplines as they exist today obsolete. Any 4th grader should be able to understand our criminal and tax code. Anything more complicated is just there to make it profitable to those who are in those professions.

I also think doing away with single judge courts of any kind are a good idea. Along with enforcing accountability and a degree of transparency in the judiciary we could conceivably make the legal process a thing which actually benefits society as opposed to the culture we currently endure.

When it comes to the debacle we quaintly call "family" law what's needed is a complete rewriting of the rulebook. If we can create a process that removes the potential for an uninvolved third party to profit from the dissolution of a family we could start to reverse the damage done to the fabric of our society over the last half century.

The assault on the American family is not spearheaded by the entertainment industry, drugs, or the "moral decline" of the 20th/21st centuries. It has in fact been led by, in no particular order, our courts and law enforcement agencies, social service agencies and of course, the "women's" movement. We all are culpable for the state of affairs we endure today and our kids are going to be the beneficiaries of the laissez fair attitude we have taken regarding their welfare.

But it all comes back to accountability. For instance, filing a false police report in most jurisdictions is either a high degree misdemeanor or low order felony. Enforcement of this one law alone could conceivably remove over half of the cases presented in the nation's "family" courts. Bringing law enforcement and the courts into the liability chain would probably clear up most of the remainder. Not to mention the collateral benefit of being able to better employ the myriad resources wasted there in more productive "civil service".

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2008, 08:12:53 AM »
hortlund..  why am I not surprised that you are a divorce lawyer?  

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 03:44:44 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
hortlund..  why am I not surprised that you are a divorce lawyer?  

lazs


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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 08:47:32 AM »
being somewhat of an expert on divorce....

I think that the real way it should be handled is...  no kids.. go by the pre nupt for everything before the marriage and split everything 50/50 that was accumulated after the marriage.

kids..

Well.. there you have it.   the parents should be instructed to live in the same area till the kids are grown.. no child support.   both parents have equal time.. 1 week each, alternating.

If one leaves the area.. they lose all rights save those granted by the other and they pay child support.

It is a child... not a puppy.. you made it.. you need to get serious about it.   Your life is not your own till it is on its own.  

Don't like that?  don't have kids or don't split up till they are grown if you do.

lazs

Offline Thruster

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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 09:51:48 AM »
Lazs,

The only problem with that formula is that it really only fits a narrow segment of the population.

What about military parents? What about the winners of the love lottery like Michael Jordan's ex.?

Most problem divorce decrees are problematic because they are formulaic in nature. It's not hard to evaluate each case subjectively and arrive at a common sense resolution. The fact that the industry choses to ignore the core issues and hard data, and instead applies assembly line protocols is the heart of the problem.

Offline Halo

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« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 10:38:03 AM »
Thank you all, excellent and thought provoking insights.  

Would like to hear more from women too, and more on the following specifics:

1.  How long children are expected to be supported, e.g., to age 18 or 21.

2.  Whether children are "owed" college or other education or training beyond high school.

3.  If children are involved and if alimony is ordered, the reasonableness of my formula proposed in the thread starter.  Since no one has commented on its specifics so far, I'm assuming either it's too complicated to bother with or it's okay.  

In other words, if child support and/or alimony are involved, and they often are, somewhere there has to be a general starting formula.  Mine seems reasonable to me because it would give both husband and wife a sense of logic, fairness, order, and finite duration including an equitable conclusion to work toward, i.e., here's x amount of money based on your life together until separation, and here's how long any divorce payments (alimony) will last.  

My motivation stems partially from hearing some women talk about how they didn't expect to get so much alimony, and how they can keep getting it by delaying or never remarrying.  And from some men talking about how it's so unfair they have to keep supporting their ex-wife even after the 50-50 assets split and even when she lives with other guys.  They're particularly disappointed when they see no end in sight to the alimony.  

On the other hand, I know some women who have gotten very little from their former husbands, including one whose new husband let the previous husband off the hook by financing all expenses of her kid with her previous husband and much of her debt (e.g., credit card) incurred with the previous husband.  The new husband and her raised that child from 4 years to 20 years with zero financial help from her first husband and practically no contact at all between the kid and his biological father.  

I also know some people who have divorced equitably and amicably with no alimony at all (no kids and nearly equal earning capacity).  

On a slightly different tack, I know three attractive and nice women who married guys who had young children.  After these women helped raise their stepchildren to high school graduation, their husbands divorced them.  

I'm assuming that in most divorces, particularly those involving children, alimony WILL be ordered in one form or another, so I'm trying to offer a starting formula that will be the most fair to both the neediest ex-partner and the one who has to help support that ex-partner for awhile, hopefully not to eternity.

This is not just theory.  It's what I'll suggest to my contact as he meets with his lawyer to formulate his strategy for his divorce hearing.  Naturally he'll keep his mouth shut and listen to his lawyer's spiel first.  But then I want him to have the strongest inputs for his own well being and satisfaction.

So these are crucial negotiation points, not just thread what-ifs.  Your help is much appreciated.
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