Stuka JU87-G1 Ground Attack

[Bronk]

1000 is twice 500, just as 1600 is double 800. And 800yds is the typical MAXIMUM range that Il-2's will open up on a tank.


And really, my point isn't that the penetration seems too low for an AP round (which it does IMO), but that the hits look the same as those you get with an HE round. Either HTC needs to fix the hit vizualizations or he needs to enlighten us as to weather or not the Il-2/ IID use AP rounds or HE rounds.

I've killed a panzer in 8 shots from a Yak-9T, and I've killed a panzer in 9 shots from an Il-2 (the only time I got 100% accuracy with the Il-2, sadly  ). Range was the same, angle of attack was the same, hell, the panzer was even holding still for both of those kills.

Try this. See how many 37 mm IL2 rounds it takes to kill a town building, then from a yak T.
You will not kill a tiger with a yak t but will with an IL2 and a hurri d. Can you guess why?

[Nemisis]

If what you say is true, then htc NEEDS to fix the hit visualizations, as they are the ones used for HE round hits agains armor.


You get the same hit visualizations when firing at the tiger in offline mode, both with the Yak-9T and the Il-2.

[Bronk]

If what you say is true,

Not "if"... is.

What is your big hang up on the hit splash?  Really?


Edit: put it up in the wishlist if it irks you that much.

[E25280]

All that means is that there is a different generic hit sprite that HTC uses for 30mm and 37mm guns.  No big whoop.  Not sure why you are fixated on the eye candy rather than the capabilities of the weapon itself.

[Nemisis]

I'm just a little annoyed that we are too lazy to give a gun the correct hit sprite. I bet you would be a bit annoyed if .50's and 20mm's had the same hit sprites as the 30 and 37mm cannons. I use what I see to judge if my rounds connected  with what I was aiming at (and in a tank, if they penetrated or ricocheted), and now I find out that the visualizations I was using are incorrect for the ammunition type the gun is firing.

[E25280]

I still don't understand the problem.  You either get a hit sprite (whether a white flash or an orange fireball, makes no difference) or you get a ricochet.  One means you did damage, the other means you did not.

[Nemisis]

I no longer have a problem with the hit sprite. But it is incorrect, and so should be fixed.

[Ack-Ack]

"Not really since his kills in the Stuka were a result of his gunner and he may have also scored a few of his 9 kills in the FW 190F-8 which he also flew."

Well, he shot down an IL-2 with those 37mms. The weapon effect was said to have been quite spectacular -even with AP.

-C+

Unfortunately, there is no real information on whether or not Rudel scored any A2A victories in any of the Ju87 models he flew.  Not even in his own book "Stuka Pilot" does he mention shooting down any planes in the Ju87, however, he does credit his rear gunner with downing a couple of enemy fighters.

There is one instance that has fueled the fire of Rudel shooting down an enemy plane in a Ju 87G-1, and that was the fight between him and Soviet ace Lev Shestakov.  However, even in Rudel's own words, he doesn't know if Shestakov was shot down by Rudel's rear gunner or if the Shestakov got caught in the turbulence from the Rudel's Stuka and crashed.

Further compounding the confusion is the exact number of A2A kills by Rudel aren't really known.  Some sources cite 9 kills while others cite 11 but all credit the A2A kills having taken place during Rudel's 400 missions flying the Focke Wulfe.

Could Rudel have shot down a fighter in a Ju 87G-1?  Sure, it's possible after all, the first A2A kill for the Luftwaffe was by a Ju 87B that shot down a Polish fighter that was trying to climb up and intercept a group of Stuka's over flying the Polish air base.  In any case, there is no real proof that Rudel achieved any of his A2A victories in a Stuka.  If he did, you would have thought he would have mentioned it in his book.

ack-ack

[kilo2]

Unfortunately, there is no real information on whether or not Rudel scored any A2A victories in any of the Ju87 models he flew.  Not even in his own book "Stuka Pilot" does he mention shooting down any planes in the Ju87, however, he does credit his rear gunner with downing a couple of enemy fighters.

There is one instance that has fueled the fire of Rudel shooting down an enemy plane in a Ju 87G-1, and that was the fight between him and Soviet ace Lev Shestakov.  However, even in Rudel's own words, he doesn't know if Shestakov was shot down by Rudel's rear gunner or if the Shestakov got caught in the turbulence from the Rudel's Stuka and crashed.

Further compounding the confusion is the exact number of A2A kills by Rudel aren't really known.  Some sources cite 9 kills while others cite 11 but all credit the A2A kills having taken place during Rudel's 400 missions flying the Focke Wulfe.

Could Rudel have shot down a fighter in a Ju 87G-1?  Sure, it's possible after all, the first A2A kill for the Luftwaffe was by a Ju 87B that shot down a Polish fighter that was trying to climb up and intercept a group of Stuka's over flying the Polish air base.  In any case, there is no real proof that Rudel achieved any of his A2A victories in a Stuka.  If he did, you would have thought he would have mentioned it in his book.

ack-ack

I have read about the shestakov fight and he did put rounds on target at least he thought he did and his gunner thought he did as well. I don't know, but the guy was really good in the plane.

[Ack-Ack]

I have read about the shestakov fight and he did put rounds on target at least he thought he did and his gunner thought he did as well.

This is from his book describing the fight.  At the time, he didn't know who the La-5 pilot was and ironically, Shestakov didn't either even though he was hunting Rudel.  

Found this when looking up more information about their fight.  

Lev Shestakov eventually flew more than 200 missions during the war, took part in 32 aerial combats and was credited with 15 kills before being killed in action in March 1944. According to Lavrinenkov's book, Lev Shestakov fought a private war with a well-known German Stuka ace - a 'Kurt Renner', who was awarded 'the Golden Knight's Cross'. No such Stuka ace existed, but the famous Stuka flier Hans-Ulrich Rudel - who flew over the same operational area as did Shestakov - was the only person to be awarded the Knight's Cross with the Golden Oak Leaves.

Interestingly, Lavrinenkov, who flew in Shestakov's unit, describes how he once met 'Renner' on the ground. His Airacobra hit by debris from a FW 189 he had shot down, Lavrinenkov went down over enemy-held territory and was captured by the Germans. He was brought to the Stalino airfield, where he met 'Renner'. Lavrinenkov claims that 'Renner' thought he was Shestakov, because he flew the Airacobra with call-code '01'. (Later, Lavrinankov managed to escape from a POW transport due to Germany, joined a guerilla detachment and eventually managed to make it back to the regular Soviet troops, where he re-joined his Fighter Regiment and took up combat flights again.) During this time, Hauptmann Hans-Ulrich Rudel (appointed commander of III./St.G. 2 'Immelmann' in September 1943) was stationed in Stalino.

During the first months of 1944, Lev Shestakov was hunting a Ju 87 with a viper painted along its fuselage sides - assuming that this conspicuos aircraft was flown by Rudel. Major Rudel certainly flew a Ju 87 G - one of the few Ju 87s still active in 1944 - over the same battlefields as Shestakov during this time. Due to his considerable successes against Russian tanks, Rudel was a highly coveted prey among the Soviet fighter pilots - as confirmed in Rudel's autobiography. Until March 1944, Rudel was credited with the destruction of more than 200 Soviet tanks and was awarded the Diamonds to his Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords.

On 13 March 1944, Lev Shestakov finally caught the Ju 87 he had been hunting for so long. Hit by a burst from Shestakov's La-5FN from short distance, the Ju 87 exploded in mid-air near Proskurov. But Shestakov didn't live to celebrate his victory. According to the version given in Lavrinenkov's book, his Lavochkin was thrown into a spin from the explosion and the famous Russian ace fell towards his death.

Obviously Rudel wasn't killed but it doesn't mean the encounter didn't happen because records do support that this was the engagement that Rudel described in his book about being bounced by a Lag-5.  Unfortunately, Lavrinenkov was incorrect about the Stuka being blown up, as Rudel survived.  It's thought that Lavrinenkov was just repeating the official Soviet version of Shestakov's death as they didn't want to reveal that one of their top aces was shot down by a Stuka.

This is from Rudel's book describing the fight.  Again, his description of the fight and from Lavrinkenkov gives credence that the "excellent La-5 pilot" was Shestakov.

'I just can't understand how he manages to follow my sharp turns in his fighter aircraft', wrote Rudel: 'Sweat poured from my forehead.' Rudel started preparing himself for the final end, as he suddenly heard his rear-gunner, Stabsarzt Ernst Gadermann, cry over the R/T: 'Got the Lag!' Rudel continues: 'Was he shot down by Gadermann, or did he go down because of the backwash from my engine during these tight turns? It doesn't matter. My headphones suddenly explode in confused screams from the Russian radio; the Russians have observed what happened and something special seems to have happened... From the Russian radio-messages, we discover that this was a very famous Soviet fighter pilot, more than once appointed as Hero of the Soviet Union.'

I don't know, but the guy was really good in the plane.

While I despise Rudel for his political beliefs (he was an unrepentant, hard-core Nazi), I do agree that he was an excellent pilot and probably the best attack pilot that ever flew.  He would have made an excellent fighter pilot as well, he was a double ace on top of all the stuff he did in the ground attack role.

ack-ack

[Charge]

"Unfortunately, there is no real information on whether or not Rudel scored any A2A victories in any of the Ju87 models he flew.  Not even in his own book "Stuka Pilot" does he mention shooting down any planes in the Ju87, however, he does credit his rear gunner with downing a couple of enemy fighters."

It should be mentioned in English version as well, maybe end of chapter 12 ("Further West" or something like that) when they were stationed on Pervomaisk, Ukraine in beginning of -44.

"While I despise Rudel for his political beliefs (he was an unrepentant, hard-core Nazi), I do agree that he was an excellent pilot and probably the best attack pilot that ever flew.  He would have made an excellent fighter pilot as well, he was a double ace on top of all the stuff he did in the ground attack role."

I'm not sure if anybody like him after all as a personality. In Finnish version there is lots of additional information and corrections of all the events that could be traced also in German war diaries and all the dates of lost German pilots and aircraft types they flew. It is also noted that while Rudel likes to talk about friendship and common cause etc. the other seasoned pilots found him quite repulsive in his opinions and depicted him as pompous and selfish.

-C+

[Slade]

Stuka JU87 Ground Attack Variant

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