Author Topic: Utah college kids get armed (Read 1688 times)

DrDea · « **Reply #45 on:** February 21, 2008, 11:01:48 PM »

Armed guards in every class room......Oh wait..My sane side just asked me who would be targeted first.

Hey if the ccw types can keep a twisted handsomehunk perp on his toes Im all for it.No down side in my opinion.

SteveBailey · « **Reply #46 on:** February 21, 2008, 11:13:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by cav58d
It has nothing to do with a ccw holder starting a shooting....My opinion has everything to do with his or her ability to attempt to respond, and what good it would do after a shooting starts....Equally, my problem is the attention and distraction it will bring into a classroom. The weapon doesn't need to be seen to make some people feel nervous. If your response to people feeling uneasy about an un-uniformed and un-trained stranger carrying a weapon is "well you're just a pansy" then I really feel bad for you, that you are so inept to think outside of your world, and that a lot of other people are different.

My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.

So really you have formed your opinion based on no data whatsoever. merely feelings.
By the way, most of the CCW people I know are neither untrained nor uninformed You are not only forming your opinion without any facts, you are forming it with misinformation. Based on your insults in your last post, I can see you're a person who would take a position and argue it for argument's sake. You have no argument to support your opinion whatsoever, merely guesses and hunches. I see no point in discussing this with you further. Feel free to respond with another insult or two and uninformed feelings.

moot · « **Reply #47 on:** February 22, 2008, 01:23:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tarmac
A sub in a miniskirt wandering in with a pair of howitzers is also a "big distraction to a lot of people." And even if it's not common, I'd bet a lot of students are very distracted by the thought as they sit in class. I'm glad you and the other nanny-staters have already decided for me that being a bit distracted by the mere possibility of a piece of artillery in the room is worse than being completely defenseless when your crazy pal walks in.

Bluedog · « **Reply #48 on:** February 22, 2008, 01:35:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Strip
No offense to the british players but look what Great Britain has become......a strict gun law policy and a absolutly terrible crime rate. They have almost banned gun ownership completely and while gun crimes went down, blunt force trauma has skyrocketed!

Here it is in a few short words

No guns.......more crime.
More guns.......less crime.

What is so hard to understand? Its old, over used, and a little corny but if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns!

So why aren't there hundreds of school and college shootings in the UK?
After all, banning guns doesn't mean the nut cases wont have guns.
What about Australia? You guys carry on about guns being banned in Australia.
After the port Arthur shootings down here , gun laws nation wide were made far stricter, a lot of people handed in a lot of guns.
Since then, not one single Australian has perpetrated or been the victim of a school or college shooting, why is that? The outlaws still have guns right?
The people are unarmed, soft targets, unable to defend themselves.

Saying 'but look at such and such a country' just doesn't cut it in this case.
Educational facility massacres are a predominantly American problem and have far less to do with the legality or availability of firearms than it does with the fact that the perpetrators are American, the product of American society.

You are barking up the wrong tree, look at why they do it, not at what they use to do it.
It's not the guns people, it's the people holding them that are the problem.

PS, please don't take all that as a jab at the US, that is not how I meant it.
I am merely saying that the right to keep and bear arms is not the real heart of the issue, it is not what causes, nor even allows these massacres to happen, so arguing about that particular right is pointless.
It's not about gun ownership or crime rates in various countries, it's all about Americans killing each other, in America, in places that should be as safe a place to be as anywhere.
Banning guns isn't going to fix that, nor is arming students.
You are merely dancing around the true problem without ever looking it in the eye, or, for many, even accepting that it exists.

SIG220 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 22, 2008, 01:45:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Strip
No offense to the british players but look what Great Britain has become......a strict gun law policy and a absolutly terrible crime rate. They have almost banned gun ownership completely and while gun crimes went down, blunt force trauma has skyrocketed!

Here it is in a few short words

No guns.......more crime.
More guns.......less crime.

What is so hard to understand? Its old, over used, and a little corny but if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns!

This is mainly talking about legal weapons and people with rights to own firearms. I am all for enforcement of logical gun laws.

(Unlike California who banned AR-15s because they looked evil when any semi-automatic gun is just as lethal as another.)

P.S. Has California fell off the map yet?

Strip(er)

Remember, Ruger Mini-14's are still legal to buy in California:

Mini-14's don't look evil at all. They are nice, good guns, unlike the AR-15.

Leslie · « **Reply #50 on:** February 22, 2008, 03:06:20 AM »

I can see Cav's point of view and understand it. It is good to discuss these things and hear differing viewpoints. I'm just thinking that if a student carries a gun, has a permit, is responsible, keeps the gun concealed and doesn't show it or announce he has a gun, then there would be no problems or distractions.

The problematical area would be if an inexperienced person just went out and bought a gun and carried it, perhaps without knowing how the weapon operates. I'm not sure how often that happens, so I couldn't say it would or wouldn't be a problem in the big picture. If they had a permit I would think they were responsible enough to learn how to operate the weapon and learn the rules concerning safety.

I believe most people who carry are responsible, and would keep the gun concealed and be mindful of it at all times. The main point is, if the gun was concealed then I wouldn't be distracted or uncomfortable. The burden would be on the carrier to keep the weapon concealed.

If the professors carried concealed it wouldn't bother me. Then again, the key word here is concealed. I believe any professor choosing to carry would know what they were doing. If a casual observer can see if someone is carrying, then at least in a classroom environment, I believe it would tend to distract.

Back in the 70s when I was in college, there was a guy down the dorm hall who I knew had a .45. Now he was a boisterous sort and drank a lot. It never bothered me he had a gun. Actually felt kinda good knowing he was there if we needed him and his .45. I'm sure there were a couple others who had firearms. It was never a problem and they weren't the sort to go around looking for trouble or to show off their guns. They had 'em but I never saw 'em because they just didn't show them around. They may have mentioned they had one. I never thought of it as a big deal. It is fairly normal to not be surprised about something like that around these parts. Almost everyone has a firearm or grew up around firearms. Most folks learn early on to respect firearms. This reduces accidents a lot.

Students have probably been carrying all along and no one has noticed it because they didn't advertise. Gun free zones should never have been created because they just don't work. If we got back to having trust in the basics of individual responsibility, I believe most things people are fearful of would prove to be non-existent problems.

Les

moot · « **Reply #51 on:** February 22, 2008, 03:21:33 AM »

Mis-handling is fixed by proper training. I wouldn't be worried by it. If someone is mis-handling their CCW, I'd point out what's wrong with what they're doing.. Either they'd work to fix it, or I'd point it out to the cops or whoever is in charge.
Either the guy fixes his problems then and there under the pressure of authorities, or he gets his CCW and permit revoked.. Really not something to dread any more than dreading old folks at the steering wheel.

And I agree with "concealed" being the critical factor.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #52 on:** February 22, 2008, 03:43:41 AM »

Let's say that everyone at some school is armed. When a lunatic attacks the school and starts shooting, the student(s) return fire.

Now, let's say a student at the end of a hallway sees another student shooting at someone. How will he know if the defending shooter is not the lunatic?

moot · « **Reply #53 on:** February 22, 2008, 03:48:04 AM »

That's what training is for. And you don't hand out CC guns to someone who can't manage trigger itch like that... You're really getting down to hair splitting at this point Ripley. It's far better for that hesitant student to be armed than not, even in that situation.

Elfie · « **Reply #54 on:** February 22, 2008, 04:15:39 AM »

While I can see the point that Cav brings up about not wanting guns in the classroom, I am a vigorous proponent of the right to self defense, no matter what the location is. I don't care if it's your home, school, car, a store, park etc, you have the right to defend yourself against criminals.

I did a bit of research on the Gun Free Zones. The gun free zones were created in 1990 by the Gun Free Zones Act of 1990 which was enacted as section 1702 of the crime control act of 1990.

Prior to the Gun Free Zones Act, there were 10 mass school shootings from 1966 to 1989, 23 years. An average of 1 school shooting every 2.3 years.

After the Gun Free Zones Act was passed in 1990, there have been 37 school shootings from 1991 to 2008. (There were no school shootings in 1990.) In 17 years there were 37 shootings for an average of just over 2 shootings per year.

Before schools were made gun free zones we had mass shootings but they were far less frequent than they have been since schools were made gun free zones.

Our schools, elementary, middle, high school and college campuses should be one of the places where a person can feel safe. Right now I don't think that is the case with all these lunatics going to the various schools and shooting as many people as they can.

Excel1 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 22, 2008, 04:57:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Now, let's say a student at the end of a hallway sees another student shooting at someone. How will he know if the defending shooter is not the lunatic?

he probably wont unless he's psychic or he knows every other ccw student well enough to quickly evaluate a situation they are both in and dismiss them as a threat. and how likley is that?..how many students are in the average american university?

it really does sound like a job for the cops or at least trained guards

lazs2 · « **Reply #56 on:** February 22, 2008, 08:22:03 AM »

cav may be right... after all.. he does know college people...

Maybe they are the only group in the US who are so immoral and so stupid that they can't handle a concealed carry permit.. so what if CCW holders don't cause problems anywhere else? most places are not filled with mush head college students right?

Maybe it is the school? maybe it exudes some gas that destroys the power of normally law abiding CCW holders to think? It sure does appear that the gas in question robs the mush head kids and their teachers of the ability to reason.

This board it proof... oh wait.. proof sucks.. but.. I think we can all "feel" it.

dos equis and the others who are gleefully awaiting a CCW holder to get into a shootout over not getting enough pudding at the cafeteria are doomed to dissapointment..

I guess we can rub it in that no shootings as predicted have happened today.

As for not being any use... CCW is the only way.. in almost every shooting everywhere.. someone says.. "if I would have had my gun I had a clear and easy shot at the guy" in a lot of cases.. they not only said it but did have a gun and did end the problem.

I guess school kids were better.. better human model.. reverse evolution.. I too carried a 22 rifle to school and the school bussed me and the other kids to the range where the NRA trained us in marksmanship and... GUN SAFETY

now.. explain to me how not letting the NRA train kids in gun safety is making us safer.

I would love to know that some of my grand daughters excellent teachers were carrying concealed.. the thought that nothing but chance is saving her now does not sit well with me.

lazs

john9001 · « **Reply #57 on:** February 22, 2008, 08:33:16 AM »

lots of talk about CCW in here, some by people that have no knowledge of what CCW means. I have a CCW, so i do know.

concealed carry means that the gun shall be carried in a way that the average person will not notice you are carrying it. That is the LAW. No one is nervous when i carry a gun, they can't see it and i don't tell them.

concealed means concealed.

As for ease of getting a permit i beg to differ, you don't just walk into a police station and pick it up, not in Florida anyway.

Lack of training? I am a former Marine, i have more than a "couple of hours training".

anti-gun people always say,"i grew up around guns", yeah, when your moma walked you past the gun display at walmart.

lazs2 · « **Reply #58 on:** February 22, 2008, 08:37:05 AM »

You can't say that allowing guns on campus in the hands of CCW holders would cause a problem because the evidence is not there.

You can point out however that since the gun free zone act.. there has been more than a tripling of shootings.. I predicted as much back then...

can I rub their noses in it? Somehow.. with all those kids dying.. I can't take glee from it.. just anger.

lazs

Elfie · « **Reply #59 on:** February 22, 2008, 01:18:24 PM »

Quote

You can point out however that since the gun free zone act.. there has been more than a tripling of shootings..

Lazs, 18 of those shootings have happened in the last 5 years alone. Since the gun free zones were created not a single year has gone by w/o at least one school shooting. The problem has steadily gotten worse since the gun free zones were created.

I have a 13 yr old daughter in middle school right now. My 4 yr old daughter will be starting school next year. I want them to be safe and the gun free zones just aren't cutting it.