what gives?

[Larry]

Originally posted by Tango
Oh I know its gone. I just can't believe these guys think its an uber plane compared to the ones in there now.

Then when I post some stats, they say we don't know how they were killed. Except that the stats show the Zero has more kills on them than the F4F does on the Zero.

Tango since you are clueless Ill give you a few. Have you ever been the the EWMA? Ill assume you havent. Iv been in there and saw a guy vulching another over and over on the runway. I had a good idea that it was his second acount because the guy didnt even try to roll. He just sat on the runway and let the guy kill him. So no I wouldnt take those stats with a gain of sand.

You whine that the F4F-4 a mid 42 isnt uber in a early war where the other fighters are all 1940[b/] is stupid. I dont know what ack ack has been smoking but its 6 .50 cals, how ever limited the ammo is, shreds planes apart. The you whine about us having cannon birds. Well Im sorry that germany and japan had planes with bigger armament then US and brits, but if I had to choose I would rather have six 50s in my 110 other then the crappy cannons. Hell I get more kills with the BBs then I do with the cannons in it.

I really dont like how allieds get mid war planes in an early war setup first the F4F in the first war now the SBD and TBM in this one. Both of which are 1943 planes.

[ACB]

Originally posted by Larry


I really dont like how allieds get mid war planes in an early war setup first the F4F in the first war now the SBD and TBM in this one. Both of which are 1943 planes. [/B]

Now I think you just dont know what your talking about.
Douglas SBD Dauntless was the U.S. Navy's main dive bomber from mid-1940 until late 1943, when it was supplanted (although not entirely replaced) by the SB2C Helldiver. The SBD was involved in combat from the first day of the Pacific War, as Dauntlesses arriving at Hawaii from USS Enterprise were caught in the Pearl Harbor attack.

[ACB]

SBD Dauntless Dive Bomber

SBD Dauntless dive bomber (Neg#: D4E-535495)The Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber became a mainstay of the Navy's World War II air fleet in the Pacific, with the lowest loss ratio of any U.S. carrier-based aircraft. Douglas delivered a total of 5,936 SBDs and Army Air Forces A-24s between 1940 and the end of production in July 1944.

The Dauntless was developed at the Douglas Northrop facility at El Segundo, Calif., and was based on the Northrop Model 8 attack bomber developed for both the Army and the export market.

The SBD Dauntless featured "Swiss cheese" flaps -- dive brakes punched with 3-inch holes -- so that it could achieve pinpoint accuracy by diving to the target, dropping the bomb and then pulling out of the near-vertical dive.

In addition to the U.S. Navy, Marine Corps and Army Air Forces, the Dauntless served air forces in New Zealand and Mexico.

The first enemy ship sunk by the U.S. Navy in World II is credited to a Dauntless from the USS Enterprise. The diving Dauntless went on to destroy 18 enemy warships, including a battleship and six carriers.
Specifications First flight:    May 1, 1940
Wingspan:    41 feet 6 inches
Length:    33 feet
Height:    12 feet 11 inches
Ceiling:    27,100 feet
Range:    1,205 miles
Weight:    9,353 pounds
Power plant:    1,200-horsepower Wright R-1820-60 engine
Speed:    252 mph
Accommodation:    Two crew
Armament:    2,250-lb bomb load; two fixed, forward-firing .50-caliber machine guns and one or two flexible, belt-fed .30-caliber machine guns mounted in rear cockpit

[ACB]

But hey its just history maybe your right.

[republic]

Originally posted by ACB
Know I think you just dont know what your talking about.
Douglas SBD Dauntless was the U.S. Navy's main dive bomber from mid-1940 until late 1943, when it was supplanted (although not entirely replaced) by the SB2C Helldiver. The SBD was involved in combat from the first day of the Pacific War, as Dauntlesses arriving at Hawaii from USS Enterprise were caught in the Pearl Harbor attack.

The SPD-5 was the last version to see significant service from aircraft carriers. 2,965 aircraft were produced between February 1943 and April 1944.

By your token, we should get the 109-K4.

[ACB]

lol ok. Sorry they havent modeled the earliest version of the SBD for the game.  But yeah thats a fair trade off. You should get the K4.  I mean what the SBD-5 improved on the 1st model right.  What it can go like 300mph faster and carry like way more bombs. LOL

[Larry]

Wow are people this slow these days?


SBD-5

[republic]

See Rule #18

[Larry]

Dam republic


Rule 18 - No sheep lovin before noon

[toonces3]

FWIW:
From my reading of "The First Team" by Lundstrom, the squadrons hated the F4F-4 vs. the -3.  The -4 added the folding wings and extra guns at the cost of considerable added weight and less firing time.

The consensus was that the -3 was strongly prefered.

I suppose the point is that, if given a choice between the -3 or -4, historically the -3 would've been the preferred ride and therefore, supposedly better plane.

I'm not sure that really is relevant to the problem we had/have,  but hopefully you found it interesting nonetheless.

[ACB]

Rule 18!!!!!!!!! What rule 18?  Im outta here.  Thats just ridiculous.  I do what i want with Axis sheep.  Your not the boss of me.  And im not slow but my Hurri is.  

[captain1ma]

ACB= Air Combat Baby??? seems he's always crying about something. 22 post and alot of hot air. hmmmmm guess he'll fit right in!!    

[Tango]

Originally posted by Larry
Tango since you are clueless Ill give you a few. Have you ever been the the EWMA? Ill assume you havent. Iv been in there and saw a guy vulching another over and over on the runway. I had a good idea that it was his second acount because the guy didnt even try to roll. He just sat on the runway and let the guy kill him. So no I wouldnt take those stats with a gain of sand.

Maybe these stats will clue you in.

F4F-4 has 6 Kills of Bf 109E-4
Bf 109E-4 has 11 Kills of F4F-4

Thats from the current AvA room, not the EWMA. Doesn't seem to be so uber does it.

[Krusty]

For the sake of clarification, as I have no opinion about its inclusion into the setup:

Anybody that's flown it knows it's a damn sight better than the P-40B, turns not as tightly as the spit or hurr1, but almost, and dives much better, but those 6x50cal are much more powerful than anything the allis or axis have. That's about as much punch as the 110c has, but with more consistent results.

Even 2x 50cal are better than 4x .303cal. I think HT models them at as 1 50cal is 3x as powerful as 1 .303cal, but that's just round power. That's not counting ballistics, armor penetration, and effective RANGE of the gun.

4x 50cal would dominate the setup if they were included. 6x50cal would overpower it.


On the one hand I can see it being used as a historical foe for the zero. The 4x50cal version WAS around during this time.

On the other hand, it would be like adding the P-40E. Doesn't matter if it has less AMMO than a P-51 or F4u, it still has the same punch as they do. You get less bursts than the other late war planes, but the effect of any single burst is usually the same: Massive damage [EDIT: Unless you got rubber bullets -- another issue entirely]

With 7mm birds, 600 is "safe" range. With a 50cal bird, you're in the kill zone. It changes gameplay and how the fights take place.

Whether or not it's included, either way suits me. I'd personally shoot at it or from it equally. It's also a tough plane that could probably take most of the ammo a A6M2 or 109E has to offer without going down.


Since forever the over-engined FM2 has been used as a Brewster replacement. I've been against it since forever because the FM2 flies circles around the Brewster. However, the only other option is the F4F-4, and since forever, folks have been saying that the added firepower of the 6 guns makes too much of a difference to use it as a substitute.

I'm not saying use the FM-2. I'm just saying that since "forever" folks have realized and admited that the added guns on the F4F-4 make it a more powerful killer.


P.S. The current allied rides (not counting F4F-4) are perfectly capable of killing the axis rides. Once bombers show up, added firepower will be needed, but not now.





[EDIT: I mean the FM2 is over-engined to be a Brewstersub, compared to the 229 it's overpowered]

[republic]

Krusty with reasonable thinking FTW!