Next FSO Up, 1000 miles of War, Ice, and fog

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by Husky01
No Sled its all good Nef talked to me about it and its all fine. I'm just glad this Aleutians setup is being run, it should be a great one! Nice work GoshtDancer looks like this should be a fun one!

If you want me to take of the him, just say the word and I can make you feel much better...  [/evil] ...muahahahah...[/insane]

[ghostdancer]

I understand the concern about the P38Gs in the event. First off they are restricted to the 3rd frame. Second there most likely be no more than 24 MAX, the same with the Ki61.

I am working with Dux through both visibility ranges and clouds to try to replicate the fogginess and horrible conditions of the Aleutians. This theater suffered the highest plane loss of any theater during the war (3 to 4 times greater than others); it wasn't do to fighting but to the weather conditions.

What this really means is that hopefully by simulating the weather it is also going to keep the fighting down in mid-altitude range. The Ki61 is competitive against the P38G up to about 15K.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=ki61&p2=p38g

It really is going to come down to how the 3rd frame CiCs decide to deploy and use their planes and in what roles.

[ghostdancer]

Husky01 actually I have been trying to work Aleutians into an FSO since 9/6/06. But for various reasons (delay with the final build of the map, then problems with the map, etc.) I kept having to run other things.

Then when I left and took an extended break from the CMs, I figured that somebody must have already done it. I was wrong, I am a big advocate of getting new maps / terrains into play so I dusted off my full blow version for an Aleutian campaign and that is how we ended up with this one.

[ghostdancer]

My original idea was a hybrid of using three different terrains to simulate the whole war in 1942.

This was the first post on 9/6/06 on the CM board talking about it (first post was talking about a Doolittle type raid but at the time would have been A20s of B26s .. B25 was not out).

FSO Idea: Pacific Flames (Rough Idea)
Okay this is for either October of November and please note this is a very rough concept I am thinking about.

I am thinking of focusing on 1942 again since the early war planeset are a good match for the allies and Japanese. Plus, I tend to find the early war stuff in the Pacific a little more interesting.

I was thinking of trying something different. By that I mean to have each frame represent a part of the overall operations going on in late 1941 and 1942 instead of just focusing on specific area and campaign. Meaning that the players would shuttle from one terrain to another to represent a different facet of the war as Japan steam rolled the allies.

I am thinking of:

[list=1]

• Frame 1 - The invasion of Mindano (12/19/41). This would pit P40Bs, P40Es, some B17s, and maybe A20s (bombers limited) against a Japanese naval force of A6M2Bs, D3As, and B5Ns. Would use the Mindano terrain (unless we have another Phillipines terrain ready then could be the invasion of Luzon instead).
• Frame 2 - The invasion of Burma (4/21/42). This would pit the British against the Japanese. Hurricane IICs, Hurricane IIDs, limited Spit Vs, and Bostons versus a Japanese naval force of A6M2Bs, D3As, and B5Ns. Would like to include some land based bombers for the Japanese but have to think on what a good substitution would be. Would use the Burma / Rangoon terrain
• Frame 3 - Well this is the one I am really toying with. I am thinking if there is someway to create a Doolittle raid on Japan. Basically allow the allies to attack with bombers from a secret location. Only allow the defenders of Tokyo to up at the T+30 mark or so. But also have the Japanese discover and attack another launch fleet to simulate them discovering the Hornet and Enterprise. Etc.

Not sure if a workable 200 pilot Doolittle type thing is possible. If not can replace with the Battle of the Eastern Soloman Seas or attacks on New Britain and New Guinea by the Japanese.


Just wanted to post rough the idea and get some thoughts and feedback.

This is the post once I found out that Aleutians was close to completion. It was on 9/7/06.

Just chatted with Dux .. the Aleutians terrain might be ready by October. So if Doolittle idea can't be created which is balanced and works for 200+ players can switch to the Invasion of the Aleutians.

That way still have one frame with a new terrain. If Doolittle can be put together still might do the Invasion of the Aleutians for one frame and drop either the Mindano Frame or the Burma Frame. That way the FSO players get to play on two new / unfamiliar terrains.

After discussion about whether players would like an FSO that is split across three different terrains or not design moved off line and I focused on a full blown Aleutian event.

Btw I welcome input, comments, and thoughtful insight.

[trotter]

I flew in an Aleutian snapshot once. Dutch harbor. Was really great, they had the conditions perfect...soupy fog, thicker than we had in Cruel Sea. I mean Cruel Sea clouds were great, but the Aleutian setup just overall had even poorer visibility. Having to check horizon gauge and altimeter while knife fighting       hope to see it again in this setup.

[ghostdancer]

You will .. I need to get the right mix .. which should also keep the fighting low or in the teens.

[Krusty]

ghostdancer, they may seem similar, but from somebody that flew the ki61 a LOT, the Ki is somewhat inferior to the P-38 (any model). The zoom, loop, acceleration, past-stall-stability, weapons count, ammo count, overall firepower, and the overall "effectiveness" of the P-38 is well past that of the Ki.

I would limit them to 10 planes (no more). Most times we're going to see 70-120 players per side, and 26 P-38s is about 1 in every 3 or 4 of all planes, and depending on how many of those are in bombers, the ratio gets even higher for "just fighters"...


Historic, maybe, but easily unbalancing.

[ghostdancer]

Actually over the past two FSOs numbers have been in the low to mid 300s.

Cruel Sea averaged 342 pilots a frame and Breaking the Siege 328. For Aleutians the committment range is is 317 to 437.

Between the low and max per side the mid for the Allies will be 184 pilots and the mid point for the Japanese should be 191. In a perfect world of course.

So I am thinking about 10% of each side. Fortunately I planned for them not to come into use until Frame 3 so I will have hard numbers to go with from frame 1 and frame 2 to make up my mind on exact numbers. But based on a perfect mid point turn out per side you could see 18 P38Gs and 21 Ki61s.

I have flown both plane also. Yes, the Ki61 is inferior but it not massively inferior. Part of FSO is also trying to have the flavor of the actual fighting and plane match ups. Which means certain planes do have strengths over others.

If I went historically then basically the U.S. forces in 1943 were using P38G, the bulk of their fighters .. they pulled the P39s out because of landing gear issues with the tough terrain. The Japanese would have various A6M models. The A6M2s is not a match at all against the P38G but it would be historical.

So since since this campaign is making assumptions that the area is much more contested than it was
I took a look at what could have been deployed. The A6M5 doesn't fall into the right time period .. plus, I don't think it would be a significant improvement over the A6M5 except in fire power. The Ki84 and N1K2 would definitely not available.

So it was either not use the P38Gs or pair them against the Ki61s. However, for play balance I decide to restrict their numbers .. so adding them just give a little bit of flavor to frame 3. Plus, with their numbers being restricted to 18 - 21 .. maybe 24 if we just have gang buster turnout in frame 1 and frame 2 on both sides, it will come down more to the proper use of them, strategy, team work, etc.

While I have not been active in FSO (flying for 6 months) I was active and flew in them previously almost from their inception. I have seen inferior planes completely gut their opponents before when they understood where to fight and not fight, to fight as a team / group, etc.

There was a Guadacanl event where a squadron of Ki61s shredded some later model P38s and F4Us. Simply because they stayed together and the P38s and F4Us gave up the high ground and fought a mid level fight that went down into the weeds.

Also seen the same happen in a Battle of Britain even where Hurricane have shredded BF109s for the same reason. The squad in Hurricanes stayed together, fought together and suckered their opponents to fight to where the Hurricane was strong.

Granted the Hurricanes and other pilots have more work cut out for them. The BF109s or in this case the P38s have more of a cushion margin for screwing up .. but it will come down to pilot and squad performance and how they are deployed by the CiC.

[ghostdancer]

Btw, I also plan to have maybe 24 P39s max for the allied side. We have no idea of the plane performance or how it will actually stack up against the A6M2. So I don't want enough of them involved to really skew things since everyone will have no experience fighting them or flying them. They are a blank slate.

Well that is if they come out before next friday or during the run of the event.

Again at this point I would be just adding them for flavor.

[Krusty]

A6M5 is noticably superior to the M2. Faster, better climbing, better acceleration, better guns (waaay better guns) and 2x the ammo for each gun, stronger to incoming firepower.


It's definitely something to consider for use against P-38s. Perhaps add some in alongside the M2s? (Just brainstorming here)

EDIT: P.S. I REALLY hope the P-39D is out by then!!!

[RATTFINK]

F4F-4 (very limited numbers)

How limited are we talking?  If the number is (12) I would like to take the F4F in one of the frames.


=FIGHTING 31= Ride Prefence for this week's FSO:      Fr I or II F4F-4 or P40B, Fr III P38G/D

<<S>>

[trax1]

How limited are we talking?  If the number is (12) I would like to take the F4F in one of the frames.


=FIGHTING 31= Ride Prefence for this week's FSO:      Fr I or II F4F-4 or P40B, Fr III P38G/D

<<S>>

They have you on the Axis side.

[Krusty]

^--   

[Saxman]

Maybe they were CAPTURED F4Fs and P-40s.

[RATTFINK]

They have you on the Axis side.

Even w/ my "Side Preference" as Allied?  Let me see...