Author Topic: My Love/Hate with the Lightning  (Read 6963 times)

Offline HighGTrn

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My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« on: March 06, 2008, 02:58:52 PM »
I've flown the P-38J off and on in my 8 months of playing this game and have developed a love/hate relationship with this almost un-tammable animal.  In my opinion, the 38 is a beautiful airplane with graceful lines and a unique design.  As a child, I once saw a 38 at an airshow and immediately fell in love with it.

A couple of nights ago, I had some luck flying the 38s against some noobs and thought I was the icing on the cake.  Shortly after this, I ran up against Delirium and some of his boys and got my butt handed to me.  Delirium encouraged me to keep at it so I did.  For 3 miserable days, I upped nothing but the J.  I had some success but in most cases, I ended up dying in almost every encounter.  Again, Delirium continued to encourage me and told me to stick with it.  Stuck with it I did and the only thing that improved was my ability to curse and swear as my frustration rose and rose.

The SAPP guys make it look so easy.  It seems like they never run out of E, never stall and alway end up chewing me to pieces.  Against other airplanes and other pilots that I usually can beat, I end up getting pwn'd while in the J.

I know that to fly the J effectively, I must employ E saving maneuvers, flaps, rudder and some throttle work.  For the most part, I start a fight with an E advantage and think I do a pretty good job at SA.  I use the vertical as much as possible and keep my nose up in a fight. Despite this, the tables seem to always get turned and I get dispatched back to the tower. It just seems like consistency with flying the 38 is ever evasive for me.

My question is then: Is there a secret to the 38?  Perhaps that is what the "S" in SAPP stands for.  The secret, holy grail of mastering this beast is out there and the SAPP guys know what it is.  Right?  For those of you who can fly the 38, <S>.

In game call sign, S1n1ster.
in game call sign: S1n1ster

Offline DoNKeY

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2008, 06:41:09 PM »
Here's my first part, more will be coming later.  Keep in mind that I am relatively new to the game, and still suck horribly :lol, but this is what I have gained through my experience in flying the 38 in and among some of the best guys in the game and some of the best 38 sticks in the game.  I am in no way a good/great stick, but I like to think that I can hold my own most of the time.  Ok here we go...

The Lightning is a “strange” aircraft to say the least…  As you’ve seen, it’s not an aircraft that just clicks as soon as you get into it.  It’s actually one of the harder planes in the game to “master.”  That’s because the 38 doesn’t have that one ability that you can utilize against other rides. 

For example, the pony and La both have speed, the 109 has its climb, and the spits/zero has its turn radius… you get it.  The 38’s greatest strength is that it has no weakness;  it does everything ok.  It’s greatest weakness though is that it doesn’t have any one great ability; it just does everything ok.  That is why it’s such a hard plane to fly efficiently, you’re always (well, most likely) up against someone who has a distinct advantage over you, and if they’re good, they’ll utilize that against you.  The “secret” to the 38 is knowing how you stack up against the plane you come up against, and then using each and everyone of your ok/average abilities to overcome your opponent, especially if they are trying to dictate the fight around their one great ability.  You also have to know when and where to use each ability.

The 38 really isn’t a cut and dry plane, like others are.  The pony is mainly a BnZ type plane; a zeke is a TnB.  In the 38 you need to BnZ, TnB, and then combine them, ultimately in the goal of developing a very good E fighting game.  You have to be able to switch between various “roles” as the situation calls for, because as we’ve seen, the 38 isn’t suited for one flat out type of style.  Having a very solid grasp on BFM, and then stringing that together depending on the situation for ACM, is also key.  This is because while being average at say turning, the 38 can “outturn” better turning rides.  For example, if you engage a N1KI, and it starts flat turning, using consecutive high and low yo-yo’s will eventually allow you to gain angles on him, and an eventual shot, effectively allowing you to “outturn” him.  There are also times when you can out turn a better turning aircraft when you are both flat turning.  It’s dependent on your E state relative to him.  If you’re at your corner velocity, and he’s not, you might just have the E and better turn rate to turn inside of him for a shot.  This is where being able to read an opponents E state comes into play, and in a 38, that’s very important.  Strong Situational Awareness is also key in a 38.  A 38 has a very big full profile.  It’s HUGE.  This, combined with the fact that most people view 38’s as just being used on porking missions, and that their pilots can’t really fight, makes people seek you out, almost as much as P-40’s.  One of my goals when I first started in a 38 was to try to become good enough so as to help get this stereotype away from 38’s, so that when people would come across a lone 38, they would thing twice about just blinding diving in.  But enough of this, you want to know the secrets of the 38 right?  8)

Well, sadly there aren’t any “secrets,” or else I would be a MUCH better pilot then I am now 8).  At best, there are only guidelines and suggestions, as each and every encounter is unique and different.  There is no one “move” that will automatically win you the fight or save your but each time you get into trouble, but there are things that you can do to help increase your chances at winning a fight and surviving.


The following are some of the things that I feel are especially important when flying around in a 38.

Looping:  The 38 LOVES to loop.  Without torque, that means you are rock steady at the top, especially at lower speeds.  Use this to your advantage-gaining angles and keeping someone off your six.  Use that last notch or two of flaps when coming over the top of loops to really get you down (I’ll talk a little more about flaps latter).  A variation of a loop that is really critical to get down in the 38 is a stall loop.  Basically, its half a loop and half a stall, usually/most of the time done at lower speeds.  When coming over the top of a loop, your speed is low enough to the point where you stall your aircraft.  Because of the 38 having no torque, your nose just DROPS, and I mean drops down, and you’re instantly back into control.  This allows you to get over the top and facing back down quickly, which allows to you lose someone or gain angles quickly as they are either below you, or trying to follow you through a loop all the while fighting their torque and trying not to stall/spin at those low speeds.  (Side Note:  Going back to the strengths of the 38, if it did have one that it held over the majority of the plane set, it would be the no torque, which allows it to perform beautifully in the vertical, or when flat turning on the deck at stall speeds).

Throttle/Rudder/WEP:  The J (what I fly) and the L both have 5 minutes of WEP.  That’s the standard in AHII.  Only German rides beat you out. I believe, so don’t quote me, that it’s two seconds off of WEP for each second gained back.  Basic rule though is don’t waste your WEP getting to the battle.  This means in transit, because you’ll need in in combat.  As for the throttle, proper work of it (as in most planes) is important.  You can’t just have it open the whole fight.  There are plenty of times when you will need to back off of it.  For example, when I get into rolling scissors, lots of times I find myself backing off the throttle for a second or two, just to keep my speed in check.  This allows me to not have to much speed over my opponent.  Infact, I cut my throttle so they get faster and so they get out in front of me. Also, when in a dive, sometimes you’ll want to back off the throttle so as not to buffet/let you speed build up to much.  Contrary to popular belief, getting fast in a dive in a 38 really isn’t that much of a problem.  Under 20000 feet, where you’ll be fighting most of the time, you will not compress 99% of the time.  You’ll feel you’re controls start to tighten up, but as long as you have trim mapped handy, you’ll be good.  I regularly get speeds up to 450/500 and rarely use trim to get out.  Just cut throttle and use rudders to bleed speed as necessary.  The only negative effect you will see in the J from these fight speeds is a very bad roll rate.  Rudders.  Rudders are very important in a 38.  From getting that last second front quarter shot in to helping in controlling your speed.  The single most important thing about using rudders in a 38 for me (besides gunnery) is in assisting in your roll.  38’s have never been known for their roll, infact its among some of the worst.  Use rudder in the direction of your roll to help increase it.  This will allow you to help stay in phase with someone you’re following, or help you get out of phase when someone is one your six.  


Flaps Flaps are something that you’re going to have to get familiar with.  The 38 needs and loves them, but they can also hurt you by sapping your E.  The flaps on the 38 will suck you dry of E.  Because of this, you never want to leave them out longer then you have to.  Sorry that I can’t be more specific on when to and not to use them though.  That is something that you’ll have to develop by just getting into a lot of fights with a 38 and using flaps.  Eventually it will become second nature, and you’ll know when to drop them, and then whether to keep them out or suck them in.  Just keep in mind that the 38 does benefit from them, and does need them, so don’t be afraid to drop them when you think you need them, it’s not going to totally screw you over if you keep them out forever, it will just make things harder.  Another place the 38 excels at, and needs its flaps when doing, is a low speed spiral climb.  Full flaps, with WEP, the 38 can spiral climb at very slow speeds, because of it not having to fight torque.  I’ve been in many situations where I’m spiral climbing under 100 mph with a enemy 200 off my six, but they just can’t quite get their nose up on me.  They’re fighting torque, and eventually they’re going to either shoot under me because their forward speed is greater then mine and I’m climbing over them, or they are going to stall out trying to pull up into to high of a AoA for a shot on me.  Use this to your advantage, as this leads into using the vertical.


Using the Vertical The vertical is where the 38 really excels against other opponents, because it does not have to fight torque like single engine fighters do.  Loops, spiral climbs, and yo-yo’s will help you to conserve E, while playing into the 38’s strengths, and most likely the enemy’s weakness (torque/ bad climb/ etc).  Roping once into a fight is one of my main tactics against people, and while I do get caught, more often then not, people underestimate the 38’s zoom or its ability to hang in the vert, and they end up under me and my guns, which, if it weren’t for my horrible aim, would be very bad for them.  Just be careful though, unless you are certain you’re just fighting that one opponent and you know his E and yours, don’t hang to much, as you might need to dodge an incoming new threat, or abort a rope or whatever if you see your opponent has more E then you.  While being incredible solid at low speeds/high AoA, the 38 still isn’t going to just magically maneuver away from someone who decides to pick you.


donkey 

Continued below because of character limit.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 08:03:08 PM by DoNKeY »
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Offline Alky

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2008, 06:54:56 PM »
I'd be interested in that too. I've always stayed away from the 38 because the last thing I need is to be a bigger target  :rofl
George "Alky®" Fisher

Offline DoNKeY

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 08:03:19 PM »
Here’s some more general thoughts/tips on the 38.

Fuel   Most of your sorties will be with either be 50% with or without DT or 75% with or without DT.  Take 25% if you’re upping out of a CAPed base in order to try and break it.  25 gives you about 9 minutes.  I take just 50 if the fight is close to base or within the sector.  50 and a DT if I have to travel a little before the fight.  I take 75 only as a substitute for 50 and a DT if I think I’ll be traveling to the fight and plan on staying a little.  Basically I do it so as to lose the drag form the DT.  75 and a DT is for when we decide to fly two sectors to start up a fight, and I plane on a somewhat long transit and hopefully staying in the area a long time.

Guns   Besides the 262’s quad 30 mm’s or any plane with quad 20 hizookas, I think the 38’s gun package is the most lethal in the game.  With 4 50’s and a 20mm hizooka, you’re set for tracking, snapshots, whatever.  Center lining means that it’s even that MUCH MORE LETHAL.  No convergence is necessary since they are on the centerline.  I set them to the max, as do other people, it’s really personal preference.  Take any shot you can get with the 50’s and add the 20 (I have a dual stage trigger) for snapshots, or close in shots). 

Ords   The 38 has one of the best or packages in the game.  2k in bombs is available for all 38’s.  The G and J have six rockets available, but they are in tube rockets.  I only take the rockets in my J if I’m on a dedicated gv or town/field busting run.  The rocket tubes do cause drag, and therefore hurt you acceleration/climb/speed etc.  The L though does not have rocket tubes, and carries 10 rockets total, and therefore it the default ground pounder for most.

Views   Not much to say.  I find in general, that once you set your vies to eliminate the canopy bars, your views are pretty good.  Not Pony good, but up there.  I find the six view is pretty good to.  I’d rate it a 9 out of 10 with a pony six view being a 10.  Over the nose, and general forward views are pretty decent also.  Just remember to set your views to move the canopy bars out of view for your side and quarter shots, then you’ll be golden.

General Performance 

Just a little general performance to show you how it stacks up.  Visit gonzogos (sorry butchered his name I know 8) ) site for better information on its stats.  In general, the 38 tends to stand out more and more against the competition as you get higher. 

Acceleration is alright down low.  Not great but not bad.  I’d rate it a little better then average.  Up in the skies, it’s actually one the better accelerators in the game.

Climb isn’t to bad either.  You will out climb all other American rides.  Most German planes will out climb you, as will most spits.  La’s and the KI-84 along with the N1KI will give you some problems on the deck, but they’re performance, especially the LA drastically drops as you get higher.  As a general rule of thumb, if you’re faster then it, most of the time you can climb better.

Speed really isn’t that great.  It’s faster then a Hurri mk 1 or an FM2, but with most of the planes you’ll meet in the late war arenas, you’ll be at the lower end of the speed chain.  WEP does help you out, but you’re still going to be slower then most.  It does get a lot better relative to most other rides as you get higher up, but most fights occur down low/on the deck.

Dive has already been covered, but ask if you’ve got questions on it still. 

Maneuverability.  The 38 is heavy and big, but can still compete with most rides, especially because of it being very steady due to no torque.  I’d rate it above an above average turner, but that still doesn’t mean you should try to turn with everything you see.  Just fly a lot, and push the limits, and find out when and where you should attempt to turn with people.  NOTE:  Turn doesn’t just mean flat turn.  Turn in the vertical also.

Landing is very easy in the 38 because of the tricycle carriage.  Combined with no torque, you can easily pull of landings that single engine fights would have some trouble with.   You also don’t need that much runway because you can come down full flaps, and be at low speeds without fear of torque turning you over. 


Overall, the 38 is a very good all around fighter.  It’s got the range, payload, and ability to actually dogfight.  It’s going to be an aircraft that you’re going to have to devote yourself to though if you’re planning on trying to get good at it, which is why a lot of people are initially turned away from it.  But if you put in the time, get with trainers, and work on it, the 38 has all of the ingredients needed to allow you to become a great, all around pilot.  Just keep with it if you’re serious about the 38.  And most importantly have fun, that’s what it’s all about.   :aok :aok

donkey
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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 08:22:00 PM »
Nice write up Donkey !   :aok

Offline Alky

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 08:27:26 PM »
Thanx, that's quite helpful  :)
George "Alky®" Fisher

Offline humble

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 08:37:14 PM »
The 38 is a very tough plane to learn. Donkey covered an awful lot (exceptionally well) so I dont want to delve into the plane itself (also i'm not a great 38 driver)...but I can add a few general comments that might help you.

In the end we can break AH pilots in to a couple of subsets (potentially overlapping). We have guys (and gals) who are plane dependent. We have some that are SA dependent and we have some that are furballers and others that are 1 on 1 assasins. All have a preferred "tool for the job". None of them will pick the 38 first (even though it can do them all).

So who flies the 38 "really well"...the guy who gets in the other guys head. The 38 is very pilot dependent and its a camelion, it'll be whatever the guy driving it wants it to be (or wills it to be). To win in a 38 you have to beat the other pilot....not the other plane.

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Offline DoNKeY

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 09:29:08 PM »
Thanx, that's quite helpful  :)


No problem.  I hope it was, as my wrists hurt now :aok :lol.  Also, HighG, humble covered that great too.  The 38 isn't like a Spit where you can just jump in and find it a easier time then other planes, even though it can do all of those jobs.  Most of the pilots you see in the 38 have been playing this game a long time, and because of that most of the dedicated 38 pilots are great sticks, but also great guys!  I'm sure none of them would have a problem taking you to the TA if you wanted to learn the 38.  I'd list some of them, but like someone said a few threads back, if I did I would surely be leaving out others.

donkey

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Offline HighGTrn

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2008, 03:11:20 AM »
Wow Donkey!!  Thanks so much for the awesome write up.  I've followed your postings and have analyzed your films to death.  This one by far has been the most helpful in a series of a lot of valuable posts you have contributed.

You have re-energized my commitment to learning this airplane.  If you see S1n1ster being shot down a lot in the MA (or happen to the be person sending me down in flames) while I'm in the 38, you'll know that I'm working on my skills.  So if you want an easy kill (for now), search me out in the MA, challenge me in the DA or help me out in the TA.

One more question.  This isn't 38 specific but it does seem to affect me in the 38 more so than other planes.  When in a tracking shot or saddled up position, how do you keep your eye on the target when you are pulling for lead and he goes out of sight below your cowling?  Its hard enough for me to get into this position in the first place and when I do and finally pull lead and fire, the target will slip out of phase and I end up missing completely. 

Thanks again Donkey!

S1n1ster
in game call sign: S1n1ster

Offline Guppy35

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 03:23:03 AM »
First thing you have to do, in particular early in the 38 flying, is quit worrying about dying.  Folks tend to shoot at those big old targets.

And as one who has been dying in a 38 since the AW days, trust me on this :)

I fly the 38G 99% of the time.  I've been taking the 38J a bit more lately if the fight is further away as my G is so slow.  The J is easier to live longer in with the extra speed and the wep.  I tend to find myself fighting much more in the vertical in the J though and not turning as much.  In the G, as any of the 80th guys will tell you, I'll be the one in the middle of 5 on the deck turning and more then likely burning, trying to see how long I can last before I die.

Bottom line is relax and have fun in it.  Some days you'll feel like you've got it all figured out.  Then the next day, you'll do nothing but die in it....well that's what I do anyway :)
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 07:52:31 AM »
First thing you have to do, in particular early in the 38 flying, is quit worrying about dying.  Folks tend to shoot at those big old targets.

And as one who has been dying in a 38 since the AW days, trust me on this :)

I fly the 38G 99% of the time.  I've been taking the 38J a bit more lately if the fight is further away as my G is so slow.  The J is easier to live longer in with the extra speed and the wep.  I tend to find myself fighting much more in the vertical in the J though and not turning as much.  In the G, as any of the 80th guys will tell you, I'll be the one in the middle of 5 on the deck turning and more then likely burning, trying to see how long I can last before I die.

Bottom line is relax and have fun in it.  Some days you'll feel like you've got it all figured out.  Then the next day, you'll do nothing but die in it....well that's what I do anyway :)


100% agree with you guppy, the P38G is my personal favorite Lightning, even if I'm a 109 pilot, i just love that light bomber :). The obscured cockpit suits me fine since the 109 has a similar cockpit, and i can make her do things above average, just have to keep my E up majority of the time, and i always fly with the 475th and there 38s as wingmen :).

S.A.P.P.
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Group Commanding Officer

Offline Hazard69

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2008, 08:05:16 AM »
Nice write up Donkey! :aok
NOW HUSH! ;)
Don't let all the "secrets" out! :t :D :lol :aok
<S> Hazardus

The loveliest thing of which one could sing, this side of the Heavenly Gates,
Is no blonde or brunette from a Hollywood set, but an escort of P38s.

Offline A8Hunter

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2008, 08:29:17 AM »
In the MA I find that the 38 excels when used with wingman tactics. One only has to run across Pawz and Lazer together to understand that. 1 v 1 the 38 isn't overpowering and often finds itself with a bogey on its tail. The trick that good wingman have figured out is that it will take a considerably longer time to get a firing solution on a 38 as it carries it's E very well. This gives the wingman time to easily slip in behind the unwary agressive pilot. Every time I slip in behind a 38 now I figure on competing with one on my 6.
 
Many is the time that I have found myself within 5 seconds of a kill shot on Pawz or Lazer only to find myself getting hammered from the 6 by the other and going down in flames. probably 25% of those situations I am making hits on the 38 but at G400-600 ranges in an attempt to hurry the kill and get the other off my 6, refusing to believe that I don't have time.

Besides carrying E well the 38 is a great turner if used properly with a combination of flaps, throttle, wep, and rpms. Finding that magical combination will take a long time (more time than I have patience for) which is why I don't fly it in fighter mode.

In attack mode the 38 is combarable to the pony and often greater. It lacks enough protectection and speed to work de-acking a field but will get ou home with the one engine you usually have after one pass on ack, ord, or radar. I prefer the pony in that mode.

I feel for you trying to learn the 38 but sticking with it is the answer. I have spent 18 months learning one plane and I still have a long way to go. I can only be appreciative of the fact that when we die we get another unlike our counterparts who flew these in combat.

Let me do nothing to bring shame or disgrace on my family, my comrades, my unit, my country. Let me conduct myself in such a manner that there is no dishonor. Let me not be wasted, but if I die, let me die like a soldier should.

Offline bongaroo

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 08:43:44 AM »
I've done just fine taking 100% fuel in the J and L almost all the time.  Unless the fight is low and close to the base I'm upping from.  Being such a big target I'm bound to get fuel leaks and running out of fuel is no fun.
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Offline HighGTrn

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Re: My Love/Hate with the Lightning
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2008, 12:32:34 PM »
In the MA I find that the 38 excels when used with wingman tactics. One only has to run across Pawz and Lazer together to understand that. 1 v 1 the 38 isn't overpowering and often finds itself with a bogey on its tail. The trick that good wingman have figured out is that it will take a considerably longer time to get a firing solution on a 38 as it carries it's E very well. This gives the wingman time to easily slip in behind the unwary agressive pilot. Every time I slip in behind a 38 now I figure on competing with one on my 6.
 
Many is the time that I have found myself within 5 seconds of a kill shot on Pawz or Lazer only to find myself getting hammered from the 6 by the other and going down in flames. probably 25% of those situations I am making hits on the 38 but at G400-600 ranges in an attempt to hurry the kill and get the other off my 6, refusing to believe that I don't have time.



Boy you got that right Hunter.  Just this last Tues when the SAPP had their night I was in this position many times.  I would get saddled up behind one of them, seconds from a kill when BAM!  Its weird cause it seems like they came out of no where.  When I saddle up, I always do a quick check 6 cause that's when I usually get jumped.  Last Tuesday was no different than any other occasion but they seem to be everywhere and no where.  It was real frustrating.  Delirium invited me to join a radio channel at 8 Eastern to fly with SAPP but I decided to tune into my squad channel instead that night.  Shoulda coulda woulda...

in game call sign: S1n1ster