Author Topic: Americans Launch Attack  (Read 4159 times)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2008, 05:27:34 PM »
Well, lets see..

Germany did not hold out on anything, They killed millions of people. I guess that if they had an A-Bomb, they would have been nice and never used it....even though they used every other weapon they could come up with in any attempt to win a war THEY started.





Unlike in The Great War, the Germans didn't use chemical weapons during WWII even if they had them at their disposal. They considered it too cruel a weapon. During the development of the A-bomb it was though to be just a very powerful explosive in military circles. The horrific after effects were not widely known.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Bronk

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2008, 05:31:21 PM »
Unlike in The Great War, the Germans didn't use chemical weapons during WWII even if they had them at their disposal. They considered it too cruel a weapon. During the development of the A-bomb it was though to be just a very powerful explosive in military circles. The horrific after effects were not widely known.
Nope, they saved the chem weapons for the civilians. :rolleyes:
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Offline NUKE

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2008, 05:32:04 PM »
Unlike in The Great War, the Germans didn't use chemical weapons during WWII even if they had them at their disposal. They considered it too cruel a weapon. During the development of the A-bomb it was though to be just a very powerful explosive in military circles. The horrific after effects were not widely known.

Unlike the great war, Germany decided that killing millions of people was not too cruel. Is a gas chamber cruel?

Probably not in you mind.

If Germany had nukes in WWII, do you actually think that they would not have used them?

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2008, 05:40:42 PM »
Are you looking to get banned again?

They didn't use chemical weapons on civilians. Zyklon-B was a pesticide ... it was cheaper, and it wasn't weaponized. The Jews and other undesirables were not considered people by the Nazis.

I'm quite convinced the Germans would have used the A-bomb if they had it ... but you are still wrong in your assumption that "Germany did not hold out on anything". They did.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Bronk

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2008, 05:43:04 PM »
Are you looking to get banned again?


LMAO from a shade no less.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2008, 05:46:42 PM »
You calling me a shade? A shade of what?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline VooWho

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2008, 05:51:18 PM »

I by all means am no history prof, but this is from wilkpedia:


"By the end of 1944 and the beginning of 1945, the Japan campaign was underway as Allied forces closed in on the home islands. By the end of January 1945, some Japanese officials close to the Emperor were seeking surrender terms which would protect his position. These proposals, sent through both British and American channels were assembled by General Douglas MacArthur into a 40-page dossier and given to President Roosevelt on the 2nd of February, two days before the Yalta conference. The dossier was reportedly dismissed by Roosevelt out of hand - the proposals contained all had the condition that Emperor's position would be assured, albeit possibly as a puppet ruler. At this time, however, the allied policy was to accept only an unconditional offer of surrender, although the eventual August settlement did keep the position of emperor in place[5]."

Personal opinion:
If my enemy wants to talk peace & atone for the crimes against me, I would listen. The firebombing drove the point home, the atomic drop was not neccessary. Reminder this my personal opinion, someone who is 100% detached.



Yes its nice that the enemy wants to surrender but that kind of surrender means he gets to keep all the land he conqured and that means he can still run it the way he wants and that means more civilian deaths for the chinese, and other nations still under control by Japan at that time. Sounds more like an armistice than an unconditional surrender.

I'm glad we drop the nukes b/c that saved millions of lives for both America and Japan, and maybe Russia, and also most Japanese didn't want to surrender and there were attempts by Japanese generals to overthrow the Emperor and fight to the bitter end.
Non Sibi Sed Patriae!

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2008, 05:54:07 PM »
"Operation Olympic"/"Operation Coronet" was already on paper and the plans to invade Japan had been laid out.  The best estimates, based on prevoius battles in the Pacific, pointed at over 1,000,000 US losses alone.  This does NOT include an estimated 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 Japanese military & civillian losses.

The option to use nuclear weapons technology to bring the quickest end to the Pacific war as possible, in the end, saved millions of lives on both sides, and Truman knew it.

I wouldn't want to have been in Truman's shoes.  The navigator of the Enola Gay lives 18 miles from me...I wouldn't want to have been in his shoes either.

For those who cannot grasp the meaning of "Total War", it means a country or entity using all or most all of the weapons/manpower/technology that it has available to it at that point in history. 

The American Union forces in the Civil War introducing multiple shot repeating rifles to it's troops at the beginning of the Atlanta Campaign is an example.  American forces using nuclear weapon at the end of WWII is another.

The United States has had nerve agents, poison gas, and other chemical weapons, but up to this point in time have refused to use them.  This is an example of an exception to "Total War"

Those implying that the US used nukes AFTER Japan surrendered (:rolleyes:) are either trolling, or just plain ignorant of history. 

If anything, I hope threads like this sends people scurrying to their local libraries and Books-A-Millions to learn more about history :aok

I have no idea what school districts are teaching in other countries, but American school districts are woefully lacking in teaching American/World history from about 1900 to present.  I hope that changes.



ROX



...  The issuing of henry repeater rifles is not an example of total war.  Sherman's March to the Sea is.
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2008, 09:21:31 PM »
In reading through this whole thread to get up to speed, I have seen some truly corny toejam spewed out here.

First of all, the Japanese were not contemplating surrender as a whole. Emperor Hirohito was thinking about some kind of negotiated settlement. But the Military tribunal in Japan wanted to fight to the last. Inside the Tribunal were officers' who were willing to pull off a coup, and overthrow Hirohito and keep fighting, even after the A-bombs' were dropped. However, the coup was foiled.

There was no secret made of Japanese atrocities during WWII. Junior officers' would practice Samurai Bushido swordsmanship skills' on american POW's by beheading them. They tested Biological weapons' on Chinese prisoners. The Death March of Bataan should not need a description. There are more instances' beyond these I've given here; I'm not gonna take the time to put them all down here. Suffice it to say, that on Moral grounds, by the end of the war, The Japanese did'nt have a leg to stand on.

Now, the necessity of dropping the weapons, and the overall justification, leave out a few other points' that turned out to have a big impact on our post-war world, as well. For instance, The Soviet Unions' declaration of a war against Japan, Only 2 weeks' before the end of the war, Probably did as much to hasten the use of Atomic weapons' as anything else. IMHO, Truman now faced the real danger, of the Soviet's invading and grabbing half of Japan whilst America took the highest casualties of the war trying to implement Operation "Downfall". The Japanese plans' all centered around an American invasion; It did not take a Soviet incursion into account. However, by dropping the Atomic Bombs, and forcing Japan to Surrender to the U.S. as it was then, It enabled the U.S. to occupy and reconstruct Japan as what it wished it to be- A Pro-Western Democracy, Rather than something like what politicians' had already seen in the split up of Post-war Germany, and the Eastern European States' such as Czechloslovakia, Poland, Yugoslavia, Romania, et al, a Communist Puppet-satellite state.

My last point would be, that with the invention of the Nuclear Weapon, it was actually fortunate that it was actually used, and shown to be the terrible, world changing weapon it was. Everyone in the world, from the Highest Politicians' to the common citizen, knew what they were, and what they could do. If the weapon had been developed by some power who kept it secret, and stockpiled them through peacetime, never using any of them until it wanted to make the same kind of Hitlerite gamble to take over the world, we might not have been able to have this conversation right now. Leaders' who had never seen pictures of the devestation of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, naive to the powers' they controlled, might have been too reckless in their political dealings' in a world which had atomic stockpiles, but knew not the implications' of their actions. Once invented, they can not be un-invented. Once used, they can not be ignored, either.

There will most likely always be Japanese who are embittered by the A-bombings. Maybe even a good percentage of the country. Just the same as quite a few americans' of the Greatest Generation would refuse to buy anything made in Japan. Who would not be caught dead driving a Japanese made car, if they could possibly help it. It is fatalistic, at best, to try to do anything other than to tell history for what it was. Which was an Imperialistic Japan's bloody attempt to take over the Pacific Rim and a large part of mainland asia, crushing everything under it's heel in the process, using any means' it so desired, no matter how barbaric and cruel. Once they crossed that line, they should have realized that setting the tone of the fight in that matter might cause reciprocations' in kind...or with interest, many times' over. In other words, don't march prisoners' to death, not feeding them, bayonneting those that drop from exhaustion, and then expect everyone to just say "Ok, I know your doing this to American soldiers' who should have been treated according to the Geneva convention, It's ok, I won't put my entire country into the single goal of kicking your head through your ass, permanately, at the earliest oppurtunity."

If the Japanese wish to fool their future generations' into thinking that what happened to them at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unjust, and that it should be attoned for, fine.

We'll just have to use more Megatonnage on them next time, to make the lesson stick.

Offline rpm

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2008, 10:54:01 PM »
Bottom line... Don't start no **** and there won't be any asskicking. :salute
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
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Offline SIG220

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Similarly, you could argue how the conflict could have been different if the RN hadn't disbanded their large conventional aircraft carriers?

Good point.  That decision truly did come back to haunt them.   And they still have not corrected that mistake yet.   Their two new carriers are still not due for several years yet.

IThe Vulcan Black Buck missions also showed the Argie scum that RAF bombers were able to strike at that distance from bases in England, and hit mainland Argentina if necessary.

Another good point.   I think that mission was more to send a message, than any actual tactical effect it had.   The Vulcan was supposed to have been retired by then too.   The fact that the plane was still even available for service was a surprise to me at the time of the war.


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Offline SIG220

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2008, 11:29:25 PM »
Don't worry, I don't want to nuke Finland.  Maybe Iran and North Korea, but thats about it.   :t


If you nuked Finland, the Tikka and Sako rifle owners would then all be trying their best to shoot you.   They would be really pissed.


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Offline SIG220

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2008, 11:33:29 PM »
Unlike in The Great War, the Germans didn't use chemical weapons during WWII even if they had them at their disposal. They considered it too cruel a weapon.


That statement is absolute nonsense.

The Germans never used their Chemical weapons in WWII because they KNEW for a fact that the Allies would then retaliate in kind.

How would the air war have been different, if Allied bombers had been dropping chemical weapons on Germany??


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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2008, 11:45:13 PM »

That statement is absolute nonsense.

The Germans never used their Chemical weapons in WWII because they KNEW for a fact that the Allies would then retaliate in kind.

How would the air war have been different, if Allied bombers had been dropping chemical weapons on Germany??


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Not so much the air war, but the whole conflict in general, i'd say. You'd have it being used as a tactical weapon in the field (that is, directly against military forces) but it could have escalated to a strategic weapon quickly (against industrial/population centers.) In that case, the Allies' would have been vastly ahead of the Germans, because they would have been able to deliver chemical weapons' almost anywhere, anytime. The Germans' had failed to effectively build any kind of large strategic bomber force, and by late in the war, they weren't able to get their tactical one off the ground, either because of a lack of fuel/pilots, or because of the dominance of the allied fighter force. Germany's one effective recourse would have been to put chemical warheads' on the V-1 and V-2 missiles, but those were not accurate enough to hit industrial targets' in London or other major English cities. They would be openly attacking the population with poison gas.

Offline SIG220

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Re: Americans Launch Attack
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2008, 11:58:29 PM »

For instance, The Soviet Unions' declaration of a war against Japan, Only 2 weeks' before the end of the war, Probably did as much to hasten the use of Atomic weapons' as anything else. IMHO, Truman now faced the real danger, of the Soviet's invading and grabbing half of Japan whilst America took the highest casualties of the war trying to implement Operation "Downfall". The Japanese plans' all centered around an American invasion; It did not take a Soviet incursion into account. However, by dropping the Atomic Bombs, and forcing Japan to Surrender to the U.S. as it was then, It enabled the U.S. to occupy and reconstruct Japan as what it wished it to be- A Pro-Western Democracy


You are creating a false impression of the timeline of these events.   Here is the chronological order:

August 6, 1945   Hiroshima bombed

August 8, 1945   Soviet Union declares war on Japan

August 9, 1945   Nagasaki is bombed

In addition, the Japanese had been counting on the Soviets to be the mediator for their negotiated end to the war.   And since they were no longer neutral, their hope of furthering such negotiations collapsed.

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