Author Topic: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?  (Read 9323 times)

Offline humble

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2008, 11:17:59 AM »
I'd have to dig back thru, there wasnt enough supporting documentation to really understand the context...just numbers in tables.

It's entirely possible the M was equal or better, I just am unaware it ever did escort duty either in the ETO or PAC so I am assuming (correctly or otherwise) that the P-51 was the preferred plane.

Karnak the minimum load was 4,000 for a B-17. I've seen a variety of figures on average bomb loads and most support the 6,000 we have in game. That is the official "average load" listed for the national museum of the USAF and most other sources I check. From my limited reading the 6/x 500 lb bombload was more typical for the mossie. As it relates to the thread here the typical mossie had 1500 lbs for ground attack from what I've read...

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Offline Karnak

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2008, 11:50:11 AM »
Karnak the minimum load was 4,000 for a B-17. I've seen a variety of figures on average bomb loads and most support the 6,000 we have in game. That is the official "average load" listed for the national museum of the USAF and most other sources I check. From my limited reading the 6/x 500 lb bombload was more typical for the mossie. As it relates to the thread here the typical mossie had 1500 lbs for ground attack from what I've read...
That is the average load, not the average load to Berlin.  Note the difference.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2008, 12:55:14 PM »
Wouldn't both planes cruise at higher than 4kft if they had a long way to go?

Actually, its somewhat counter-intuitive, but to fly the longest distance with the least fuel, you should fly as close to the ground as possible.  Lindbergh flew to Paris at 50 feet over the water, for example.

One of the differences between ETO and PTO was that in ETO, an hours worth of flight time or less had you over enemy territory.  In the Pacific, late in the war, you might have 3-4 hours of flying before you got to mainland Japan.  So, the technique for the VLR missions was for outbound cruise to be flown down low, climb to reach the objective at combat altitude, then RTB at low altitude.
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Offline moot

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2008, 01:16:13 PM »
I'd never heard about that, thanks! This was because of ground effect?  High altitude flight is less expensive in fuel than, say, 5kft, right?
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2008, 02:09:42 PM »
I'm not sure I believe it though. If it was true wouldn't commercial aviation try to fly as low as possible instead of as high as possible?

As for the low flying pacific missions, isn't it more believable that they did it for navigational reasons? The higher you fly the stronger the winds and with no landmarks to navigate by...
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2008, 02:15:52 PM »
Actually, its somewhat counter-intuitive, but to fly the longest distance with the least fuel, you should fly as close to the ground as possible.  Lindbergh flew to Paris at 50 feet over the water, for example.

Lindbergh flew low because fully loaded Spirit of St. Louis couldn't climb at all, it was lacking the instrumentation and because it was powered by the engine with no supercharger, suitable to max 5000ft under best conditions and much lighter airframes.

For WWII planes, best cruise altitude was determined solely on mission profile and the capability of the airframe/engine. In any case, cruise altitudes where often low because of environmental reasons (no pressurization, limited oxygen supply, temperatures).

Anyways, the best speed altitude is usually the most economical in terms of fuel burn but it costs to climb to that alt.

Offline Brooke

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2008, 03:13:00 PM »
If you match speeds, it won't be a true comparison of maximum range.  Merely a comparison of range at a certain speed.

I matched duration and looked at speeds, which then gives range.  The only reason I did it this way, though, is that it would take a long time to figure out best settings to get maximum range in AH (as you have to wait for speed to get to steady state after any engine adjustment to be able to figure out range).  Max cruise is not really max range in AH, and max cruise for one plane might be closer to the true optimum range than max cruise for another plane.  For example, max cruise settings for the P-47N had the plane flying at stall speed with full external fuel and at a speed where the autopilot could not maintain altitude.  So, I couldn't compare both set at their max cruise settings.  What then to pick?  I decided to use the P-51D's max cruise settings (as it could fly just fine at those settings), noted speed, duration, and range; then I set the P-47N to have the same duration, and noted speed and range.  Or I could have set the P-47N to have the same speed and noted duration and range; but matching speeds takes a long time of fiddling, whereas matching duration is very easy with just a quick RPM adjustment.

Offline Stoney

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2008, 04:12:00 PM »
I'm not sure I believe it though. If it was true wouldn't commercial aviation try to fly as low as possible instead of as high as possible?

As for the low flying pacific missions, isn't it more believable that they did it for navigational reasons? The higher you fly the stronger the winds and with no landmarks to navigate by...

Remember, we're talking about piston powered aircraft here.  Jet engine propulsion works entirely the opposite of piston power--for jets, generally speaking, the higher they fly the more efficient the engines are.  Peter Garrison, the designer of Melmoth and Melmoth 2, did an article in Flying magazine a few years ago where he discussed the mechanics of maximizing range.  I can't remember the details, but the underlying theory is that the fuel spent climbing to altitude is never fully recovered as a result of the higher speeds at altitude, and therefore, in order to fly the maximum range, flying at sea level will take you the most miles.  This makes no consideration for time, which is important to consider.  Obviously, to fly a certain distance in the least time, climbing to altitude will become more efficient--typically whatever altitude has the most favorable winds for propellor aircraft. 

This theory is what Lindbergh taught the P-38 crews and others when he went to the Pacific--how to maximize their combat radius through the use of "off-chart" power settings, manual leaning, etc. 

Anyway, if we're talking about the plane with the longest reach, the P-47N outlasts the P-51D.
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Offline moot

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2008, 04:16:37 PM »
That's clear, thank you.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2008, 04:24:27 PM »
I'm not sure I believe it though. If it was true wouldn't commercial aviation try to fly as low as possible instead of as high as possible?

As for the low flying pacific missions, isn't it more believable that they did it for navigational reasons? The higher you fly the stronger the winds and with no landmarks to navigate by...

Most late-war fighters in the Pacific had an RDF system for navigation. RDF was line of sight, thus flying low means you will not be able to obtain a signal. I seem to recall that this was the AN/ARN-7 radio compass.

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Offline Stoney

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2008, 04:27:21 PM »
I matched duration and looked at speeds, which then gives range.  The only reason I did it this way, though, is that it would take a long time to figure out best settings to get maximum range in AH (as you have to wait for speed to get to steady state after any engine adjustment to be able to figure out range).  Max cruise is not really max range in AH, and max cruise for one plane might be closer to the true optimum range than max cruise for another plane.  For example, max cruise settings for the P-47N had the plane flying at stall speed with full external fuel and at a speed where the autopilot could not maintain altitude.  So, I couldn't compare both set at their max cruise settings.  What then to pick?  I decided to use the P-51D's max cruise settings (as it could fly just fine at those settings), noted speed, duration, and range; then I set the P-47N to have the same duration, and noted speed and range.  Or I could have set the P-47N to have the same speed and noted duration and range; but matching speeds takes a long time of fiddling, whereas matching duration is very easy with just a quick RPM adjustment.

You're partially correct.  It was interesting for me to note last night that, when using the power/rpm settings in the P-47N POH, I couldn't hold altitude at 5000 feet.  That's something I'm going to look into later as the POH says you should be able to hold altitude at that loading with 1900RPM and 33.5" MP.  But, I did manage around 190 TAS on 2100 RPM, and 35" of MP, which gave me a fuel burn of about 115 gph.  Once the belly tank was off, I was able to maintain altitude on 1900 RPM and 34" of MP, which dropped the fuel burn to right around 100 gph.  Once the wing tanks were off, I was able to maintain altitude on 1700 RPM and 31" of MP, which dropped the fuel burn down to around 80 or so GPH.  So, flying around 190-200 mph TAS, you can easily make in excess of 2000 miles for the P-47N in game.  I'll do some more testing to see if I can come up with some hard numbers.

But, duration changes as the weight of fuel, and drag of tanks is removed, if flying at a constant speed, since lower power settings are available at the lower weights/drag.  So, theoretically, the duration number would continue to stretch out until you ultimately ran out of fuel.  According to the POH, the 2X165 and 1X110 external tanks (440 total gallons) were capable of taking you 900 miles, but almost the same amount of internal fuel could take you 1400 on the trip back.

So, merely looking at the duration shown on the E6B at the start of the flight won't give you an accurate representation of the true max range.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 04:34:07 PM by Stoney »
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Offline Angus

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2008, 07:09:59 AM »
Hmmm...in AH, when I need to bomb something big,,,,Lancaster.
When I need a mp fighter with good maneuverability and speed as well as ROC and the ability to kill a Spixteen....Spitfire VIII....or something fast like the Tempest.
Long legged fighter....P51
Medium bomber with bombsight....B26
Carrier plane....probably F4U

On the horizon would be either the Mossie or the 110 as attackers, but a CHog will also do just fine ;=)
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Offline Pannono

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2008, 11:03:45 PM »
I would rather join the army than fly a B5N2 into combat.
why? dives great, decent bomb load for attacking GVs, takes off very very quickly with full flaps (basically floats off deck)
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Offline moot

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2008, 11:16:04 PM »
why? dives great, decent bomb load for attacking GVs, takes off very very quickly with full flaps (basically floats off deck)
It's a sitting duck.
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Offline Messiah

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2008, 06:49:26 PM »
109F/G/K series
190a8
Me-262
Ju88 or He 111 for bomber
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