It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?

[Karnak]

Mossie had 1/2 the bomb load of the A-20 and no real level bombing capability.

A-20G has no level bombing capability either and is much less survivable than the Mosquito FB.Mk VI.

If we extend it to other versions of the two aircraft, well, I just have to say "Mosquito B.Mk IV, B.Mk IX, B.Mk XVI had no level bombing capability?"    I think you need to reread Mosquito history before you make claims about it.  Mosquito B.Mk XVI could carry the same load as the B-17 to Berlin and do it much, much faster with much, much lower loss rates.  There are reasons that Boston Mk III crews were excited to get Mosquito B.Mk IVs.

[Stoney]

The p47N has a combat range of 1350 miles with maxed drops (I/m guessing that radius with full drops at cruise {200mph for the N}). The pony has significantly greater range at a higher crise speed (275 mph)...so for long haul bomber strikes it was the better escort. The P-51D set a cross polar record of over 9 1/2 hours/& well over 3000 miles. I forget who said it but it the quote summed up the pony nicely....it was something along these lines. "The pony wasnt special because of what it could do, it was special because it could do it over Berlin"

The Pony mission was 10.5 hours and 3300 miles from Norway to Alaska over the N. Pole.  Not a typical combat profile there at all.

According to the P-47N POH, a typical long range combat mission carrying 2 X 165 gal wing and 1 X 110 gal belly tanks allows for 900 miles using external fuel only, 20 mins of fuel for combat, and enough internal fuel to fly 1400 miles on the return trip.

According to the P-51D POH, max operating range with 2 X 75 gal wing tanks was 1600 miles (it doesn't present a combat mission scenario like the P-47N, so I don't know if that includes fuel for combat.)

Furthermore, the P-47N squadrons on Ie Shima would fly to Korea carrying rockets and a single 500 lb bomb.  That's 1500 miles round trip, with ordnance, and with enough gas to get the bombs off and operate at combat power settings for 15 minutes.

[humble]

A-20G has no level bombing capability either and is much less survivable than the Mosquito FB.Mk VI.

If we extend it to other versions of the two aircraft, well, I just have to say "Mosquito B.Mk IV, B.Mk IX, B.Mk XVI had no level bombing capability?"    I think you need to reread Mosquito history before you make claims about it.  Mosquito B.Mk XVI could carry the same load as the B-17 to Berlin and do it much, much faster with much, much lower loss rates.  There are reasons that Boston Mk III crews were excited to get Mosquito B.Mk IVs.

The XVI normally carried 6 x 500 lb bombs and had a maximum load of a 4000 lb "cookie" bomb.

The B-17 had a normal combat load of between 4,500 and 8,000 lbs but had a maximum capacity of 17,000 lbs of bombs.

Technically the A-20G did not have any level bombing capacity either in AH, I was lumping the boston as equivelent to the C or J model...which could be construed as a "cheat". Within the limit of the plane set the A-20 was a much more effective and widely used ground attack aircraft. While the mossie carried out a number of high profile percision attacks it doesnt seem to have been used in the ground attack role anywhere near as much as either the tempest or typhoon.

No question the speed and high alt capability of the XVI was very impressive, from my limited knowledge it was used almost exclusively as a night bomber.

Arguements for the mossie, 110 and IL-2 (as represented in AH) could all be made. From my perspective the A-20 has the largest bomb load (most important aspect) and significant direct fire capability {less then the others since it has no cannon here} but based on historical noted very little damage was done to armor by cannon compared to bombs and .50 cals were very effective vs rail, trucks and other "soft" targets..

So in my mind the A-20 provides better ground interdiction while the P-38 provides better "fighter/bomber" capability in a dual role. Offering greater payload then the mossie here with superior air to air capability. so the P-51 is your primary strategic/forward area fighter. The P-38 provides air cap over the battlefield/ground attack and the spitXIV provides point defense...all three functioned with a high measure of success in all 3 roles (obviously with the spits range limits taken into consideration)...mean while the B-24 gives the best payload at slightly higher potential loss compared to the B-17 and the A-20 provides the biggest tac air payload in the game in a plane optimized for dive bombing/interdiction of both ground forces and supply vs the other options.

No question the mossie would be more survivable in some missions then the A-20, but it would be less effective overall..

Recognizing that the in game numbers arent automatically an accurate real world portrayal its interesting to note that the a-20 has a positive K/D ratio every tour I looked at (late war) while the Mossie is negative every tour. The 110G2 fares even worse...while the IL-2 compares well with similiar numbers to the A-20. Given uncertain operational tasking the a-20s advantage in range and bombload gives it the nod...

[humble]

The Pony mission was 10.5 hours and 3300 miles from Norway to Alaska over the N. Pole.  Not a typical combat profile there at all.

According to the P-47N POH, a typical long range combat mission carrying 2 X 165 gal wing and 1 X 110 gal belly tanks allows for 900 miles using external fuel only, 20 mins of fuel for combat, and enough internal fuel to fly 1400 miles on the return trip.

According to the P-51D POH, max operating range with 2 X 75 gal wing tanks was 1600 miles (it doesn't present a combat mission scenario like the P-47N, so I don't know if that includes fuel for combat.)

Furthermore, the P-47N squadrons on Ie Shima would fly to Korea carrying rockets and a single 500 lb bomb.  That's 1500 miles round trip, with ordnance, and with enough gas to get the bombs off and operate at combat power settings for 15 minutes.

I was using the official P-47N testing stuff available on line which shows 800 miles internal at 200 mph vs 1000 miles internal at 275 for the pony. Combat radius for the N is given at 1350 with max external tanks. that would be 2700 miles total for the N vs 3200 for the pony. I'm certainly not an expert on this one, my limited understanding is that the cruise power settings for long range didnt really provide for practical speeds and that dialing up enough power to maintain a higher speed (similiar to the pony) drastically reduced the range on the N.

[Lumpy]

Humble, I’m unwilling to continue this hijacking of yours, so I’ve responded to you in a new thread:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,232277.0.html

[Brooke]

In Aces High, the P-51D and the P-47N seem to have comparable ranges.  It's a little hard to compare, though.  The P-51D with max fuel available (i.e., with max drop tanks) in AH has, at full power and sea level, 131 minutes of duration of flying.  At its max-cruise settings, it gets 254 minutes of duration of flying.  At max cruise, it has a sea-level speed of 282 mph.

The P-47N with max fuel available has, at full power and sea level, 157 minutes of duration of flying.  At its max-cruise settings, it gets 357 minutes duration of flying.  However, the max-cruise settings for the P-47N have if flying along very, very slowly with max fuel load.  If I set it so that it gets 254 minutes duration of flying, it has a cruise speed of 278 mph.  Thus, at this power setting, it will get about the same range as a P-51D.

This is all at sea level.  I'm not sure how it would all pan out at high altitude (although I may test it, too).  I suspect the P-47N would have the edge there, as it has a turbocharger (which has a very high critical altitude) whereas the P-51D has a two-speed supercharger (which has a critical altitude at about 25k, above which engine power starts to drop off).

[Brooke]

The Mosquito is a great plane, but compared to the version in AH, the P-47N is allowed to carry more lbs of ord and (once done with the ord) is much faster.

[Lumpy]

I chose the B-24 as my level bomber since cost is not an issue (per the rules) and since the bomber Mosquitoes are not modeled. If they were I would choose a bomber Mosquito instead.

[Brooke]

I tested the P-51D and P-47N at 30k both with max external fuel.  Flying the P-51D at 2500 RPM and max manifold (as close to max cruise settings as you can get), it has 270 minutes duration, 316 mph true.

The P-47N, adjusted to have the same flying duration (270 minutes), also flies there at 316 mph true.  So, under those conditions, they have the same exact range.  If you worked it so that you drew from your center drop tank in the P-47N then dropped the empty center drop tank, you might end up having a little more range and speed than the P-51D at 30k alt.

At 25k (best altitude for the P-51D), the P-51D flying (at 2500 RPM) has much more range than the P-47N if the P-47N is trying to match the P-51D's speed.  Here, the P-47N would have to fly more slowly to get a comparable range to the P-51D.

At sea level, the P-51D has 81 minutes internal fuel and the P-47N has 93 minutes internal fuel, so again, even on internal fuel, the two are going to be very similar here in range.

By the way, in case anyone wants to replicate my numbers, I just realized I have offline set the fuel burn multiplier to 1.213 (not 1), as it is still set for what we often use in scenarios.

The P-38L, adjusted to have the same duration of flying time at 30k, doesn't have the same speed and thus range as the P-51D or P-47N with the max external fuel that AH allows it to carry.

[Stoney]

I was using the official P-47N testing stuff available on line which shows 800 miles internal at 200 mph vs 1000 miles internal at 275 for the pony. Combat radius for the N is given at 1350 with max external tanks. that would be 2700 miles total for the N vs 3200 for the pony. I'm certainly not an expert on this one, my limited understanding is that the cruise power settings for long range didnt really provide for practical speeds and that dialing up enough power to maintain a higher speed (similiar to the pony) drastically reduced the range on the N.

First, where did you find a resource that quoted a 1600 mile combat radius for the P-51D?  Second, how do you think that Pony made 3300 miles?  It certainly wasn't doing 275 mph to leg that out.  Plus, it would have had to be carrying the 110 gallon wing tanks, which according to the POH "places near limit loads on the wings and bomb racks".  If we put the 330 gallon wing tanks on the P-47N and the 110 gallon belly tank, you're talking about 770 gallons external, which is twice what I used (if we're going to compare extreme capability beyone that which was used in combat missions).  I was going with realistic combat loading and the operating charts published for both planes.  According to the operating charts, at 25,000 feet, the P-47N could make 300 mph TAS on 180 or so gph.  It broke down to 1.9 air miles per gallon.  Cruise power settings for max range didn't provide practical combat speeds, but when you're legging it out over distance to a target, then trying to get back, cruise power settings were used exclusively.  Those missions to Korea and mainland Japan from Ie Shima sometimes lasted 12 hours +/-.  Even sipping the most minimal amounts of fuel, the P-51 couldn't stretch out 12 hours of endurance.  Not to mention that the P-47N pilot can flip the rudder pedals, set the auto pilot, and dream of Suzie while he flies.

Just to put it in perspective, and paraphrasing Widewings website, a test was performed by a P-47N.  It departed New York, flew to Florida, engaged a P-47D40 in a mock dogfight for 20 minutes (including 15 mins at military and 5 minutes on WEP), then flew back to New York, and then diverted to another field in New Jersey for weather.  It flew all the way to Florida on simply the external tanks, albeit the 330 gallon ones.

You are correct to say that at combat power settings, the Jug was burning twice (or a little more) the fuel as the Pony.  Of course, it carried almost 3 times the internal fuel of the P-51, and almost 3 times the external fuel of the P-51.  The P-51 was an awesome, efficient escort fighter.  But it didn't have nearly the legs of the Jug N.

Finally, the max cruise settings in Aces High are no where near the actual "max" cruise settings.  The P-47N POH shows 1700 RPM and 31" of MP for periods where "time is not a factor" (this is a low altitude setting).  Another issue is the lack of the 110 gallon belly tank in AH.  That extra 35 gallons can add 15-20 minutes to the P-47N max cruise endurance.  So, if this is a discussion about what we would fly in the real world, we should compare real world operating factors.  My list of 5 would be completely different had the question been "its real life in the MA, and what 5 planes would you fly".

I'll admit I'm a P-47 fanboi  I'd be interested in seeing Brooke's comparison of the aircraft at altitude.  I'll do a little messing around with minimum cruise settings and see what I come up with for absolute range for both.

<S>

Stoney

[Stoney]

I tested the P-51D and P-47N at 30k both with max external fuel.  Flying the P-51D at 2500 RPM and max manifold (as close to max cruise settings as you can get), it has 270 minutes duration, 316 mph true.

The P-47N, adjusted to have the same flying duration (270 minutes), also flies there at 316 mph true.  So, under those conditions, they have the same exact range.  If you worked it so that you drew from your center drop tank in the P-47N then dropped the empty center drop tank, you might end up having a little more range and speed than the P-51D at 30k alt.

At 25k (best altitude for the P-51D), the P-51D flying (at 2500 RPM) has much more range than the P-47N if the P-47N is trying to match the P-51D's speed.  Here, the P-47N would have to fly more slowly to get a comparable range to the P-51D.

At sea level, the P-51D has 81 minutes internal fuel and the P-47N has 93 minutes internal fuel, so again, even on internal fuel, the two are going to be very similar here in range.

By the way, in case anyone wants to replicate my numbers, I just realized I have offline set the fuel burn multiplier to 1.213 (not 1), as it is still set for what we often use in scenarios.

The P-38L, adjusted to have the same duration of flying time at 30k, doesn't have the same speed and thus range as the P-51D or P-47N with the max external fuel that AH allows it to carry.

If you match speeds, it won't be a true comparison of maximum range.  Merely a comparison of range at a certain speed.

[Anaxogoras]

Face it... most of you were in love with the P-51 since 1st grade and can't fathom that something as ugly as the Jug could be better.

[Stoney]

Ok,

Did some testing offline.  I also forgot that the P-47N wing tanks in service were 165 vice the 150 we have in game.  So total fuel discrepancy would be 65 gallons, counting the wing and belly tank.

Obviously I didn't fly a 10 hour test flight to confirm, but based on specific engine consumption, I think I can get at least 2400 miles out of the Jug in game.  The P-51D looks like it could go 2000-2200.

The secret is that as the fuel weight is burned off the plane, you can reduce power slightly and maintain the same speed, hence burning less fuel.  An example is that I flew almost 200 miles with the range counter on the E6B showing a range of 1400 miles.  When I punched the belly tank, I still had 500 miles + potential left in the wing tanks.  Get the wing tanks to 1/2 full, which burns off 900 lbs, and that 500+ would turn into 6-700 miles at least.  With the plane clean, 1800 rpm and 32" was showing me somewhere in the range of 1000 miles, which again, would stretch out to something close to the book value of 1400 miles.  Add all that up, and you have about 22-2400 miles.  That would be roughly 13 hours of flight time, which I don't care to test to the end I don't even want to know what I'd get with the 330 gal wing tanks.

The Pony would certainly get there sooner, as 1600 RPM and 33" MP resulted in about 220 true with tanks, and 240 true without compared to the P-47 maintaining about 200 true.  I tested by taking off, backing power down to normal rated as soon as I rotated.  I climbed slowly to 4000 feet MSL and leveled off, letting both planes accelerate to 200 true for the Jug, and 250 true for the Pony.  Then I backed the power down to the min cruise settings listed in both POH's.

[moot]

Wouldn't both planes cruise at higher than 4kft if they had a long way to go?

[Karnak]

Humble,

On missions to Berlin the B-17 usually carried 4,000lbs of bombs.  The same as the Mosquito B.Mk XVI, which most often carried a 'cookie'.