new AVA rules of engagement

[Oldman731]

Despite what Arlo suggested, the AvA was a more civil area in the past.  Maybe he missed it

He did.  He is harkening back to the pre-AH2 era, and he is correct about that period.  The advent of AH2, with its new plane modeling and it's instant destruction of all the old AvA maps hit us like the plague hit Europe (seems like only yesterday).  During our subsequent Dark Ages there was, indeed, an extended period of general chivalry (there were always Black Knight exceptions, of course), caused principally by the fact that, with so few people in the arena, you just wouldn't get any good fights if you ended them early with head-ons, vulching and/or ganging.

Now we have some numbers again, and a welcome influx of people who were raised in the MAs.  To no one's surprise the chivalry aspect has declined, particularly given the emphasis on base capture.  There are no free lunches.  The nice thing is that we are again seeing discussions like this one, which shows that there is a growing base of people who want to raise the quality of play.  Experience teaches that you can't require people to conform to a standard - there really is no fair enforcement mechanism, even if you wanted to accept the player base loss it would cause - but you can encourage people to conform to a standard by setting an example.

- oldman

[republic]

Ahhhhh .... late 2005 .... early 2006. That's a good two years plus and nobody should sell you short for your experience(s). But I still can't help but wonder if you see things through rose-colored glasses.

I'm not questioning your perception of the CT of old, I don't understand why you can accept my perception of the AvA of old...  Besides I'm not the only one who is saying it WAS a better place.

there was, indeed, an extended period of general chivalry

The players dictate the mood of the arena.  So if the players want a better arena, it can be a better arena.  I honestly can't fathom the hopelessness that some are expressing.

If you want it better, it can be better.  If you don't want it better, it can stay the same or get worse.  We truly get to decide how the AvA is...for better or worse.  It should also be said that the posters on the forum are only a small percentage of the community.  In fact, historically, some of the loudest voices in the forum have very little time in the arena.

[Arlo]

He did.  He is harkening back to the pre-AH2 era, and he is correct about that period. 

I know we've always kinda stood on seperate stances on chivalry in the AvA ... you wanting more ... me not really caring what the other guy does and just focused on my own. Doing my best to enjoy the game no matter what my opponent decides to throw at me. In the end (though it seems endless, at this point) we either enjoy the game, as it's designed, formatted and implemented in whatever setting the designer offers us .... or we don't.

BUT, as long as we've known each other (in two different games) you know I've a strange penchant for community (as do you). Mine's built less on how someone else plays the game and more on interaction over commonality ... now. AW had a lot of WWII history nuts and flight sim jockies from the caveman days who worked long and hard at devising scenario enviroments for immersive sake. Yes, more than a few of them were defenders/enforcers of chivalry, as well ... but that eventually revealed folly to me. But many of them were also realists who witnessed the traumatic influx of "the 10,000 dweebs" (before my time and I was probably in the second wave) yet survived and adapted in an evolving WWII air combat sim enviroment that will always offer more than it did the day before.

The AvA, as I see it (and I know I'm repeating myself), is HT's bone to us historical setting fanatics who want something available 24/7 or when there's an event that has hrs/days we just can't make due to real life. He does it because he's more like us than the rest of the AHII community realizes (as evidenced by HT and company's continued commitment to developing "Combat Tour"). But the mains drive the revenue. AHII is still a business even if it's a labor of love. So the AvA is left to the players and staff to create the best persistant immersive enviroment we can until CT comes out. Ummmm .... that's just my take.

[edited because my memory really isn't perfect, afterall ]

[Arlo]

The players dictate the mood of the arena.  So if the players want a better arena, it can be a better arena. 

Players are not really a collective entity or a group mentality anymore than humans are in anything. Chivalry can't be mandated anymore than morality can be legislated. "The players" are comprised of you, me and however many other players stumble through the AvA door. Everyone can take charge of their own code of ethical behavior and as long as it doesn't cross the clear TOS line I don't rightly care. I would much rather enjoy the game and focus on it without wasting my precious time enforcing unwritten rules on my fellow player (as someone who isn't volunteering their services presently to monitor the arena for TOS violations). The other guy should be grown up enough to figure it out on their own (and in some cases anyway, they may literally be too young or immature to appreciate the time I'm wasting on them). So I'll fly and die in this game with my friends and not-so-friends in a manner I best suit (generally chivalrous when the luxury permits, ironically enough ). Half the "fly right" whines I've ever had directed at me were ill-percieved, at best. Tells me right there community enforcement of "chivalry" has already failed the test.

[WWM]

Arlo, so it really doesn't bother you when you're headed out towards an enemy base and get into a good fight with a single con to have a 190 or 2 dive on on you?

I couldn't really care less about the HO'ing....I just hate having a fight broke up or being vulched.  If I'm fighting someone let me finish it....afterwards I will hit alt x and you can pick me apart while I go the fridge for a refreshment...I really don't care at that point. 
Thats just me though.

[Arlo]

Arlo, so it really doesn't bother you when you're headed out towards an enemy base and get into a good fight with a single con to have a 190 or 2 dive on on you?

If it did, guess I'd hafta quit on the grounds of emotional abuse .... cause it happens .... regular-like. I should blame the other guy why? I learned there's really nothing to get over when there's not that much that get's to me.

[WWM]

Well thats good I guess......stress is a killer

[E25280]

Arlo, I understand you believe you are simply being a realist. You say the rules are unenforcible, and that is true.

On the other hand, "rules" of any nature in a game like this are a result of "peer pressure" since there can be no real enforcement.  For peer pressure to work, those being "pressured" need to feel like they are in the minority.

As much as I disagree with the smack-talking and obvious double-standards of some individuals, there is certainly a method to the madness.  Poke a guy long enough, he might decide to change to better "fit in."

By constantly berating those asking to lift the standard a bit, you are condoning the "lowest behavior" in this or any other game -- the attitude of "I'll do what I want, when I want, and you can't stop me."  While the attitude may be technically correct, it makes for a fairly lousy community IMHO.  You get poor behavior, such as spying and whatnot, and why shouldn't they?  Who cares if the "majority" think it is poor behavior? Arlo and others are saying it is perfectly fine to do what I want when I want, and anyone who says otherwise is a whiner.  There is no need for me to change.

I suppose you will say that is exactly as it should be.  I respectfully disagree.  If the arena you want is one where the lowest common denominator prevails, then by all means keep defending it.  If it isn't, then I am not sure why you are working so hard to provide them cover.


You certainly missed the days when the norm was people like Dichodog and Oldman.  Few cared who shot who down and under what circumstances.  This is because there was a set of agreed upon guidelines, and the community was small enough that 1) most newcomers (myself, for example) adopted them and 2) those that broke them (bad day or what have you) were generally quickly forgiven.  As long as the population stays large, it won't get quite to that level again -- but it certainly could be better, if people would let it.

[Jaxxon]

I'm a big believer in chivalry but I'm afriad that it's long dead in this game. Sure, you see examples of honor from time to time but it's rare.

Example: FSO, April,11, big fight, lost part of a wing and leaking fuel headed for the deck and trimmed level to RTB to the CV some 40 miles away. Chances for survival, next to FA. Run down and flamed, why? I was an easy kill? Whatever floats your boat
And you want a code of honor in here, good luck with that.

[republic]

I would much rather enjoy the game and focus on it without wasting my precious time enforcing unwritten rules on my fellow player

I'm sad you missed out on a couple of great years in the AvA.  If you had any idea of what it was like before, you wouldn't be posting things like that.

Who cares if the "majority" think it is poor behavior? Arlo and others are saying it is perfectly fine to do what I want when I want, and anyone who says otherwise is a whiner.[/b]

[Arlo]

By constantly berating those asking to lift the standard a bit, you are condoning the "lowest behavior" in this or any other game --

Oh contrare .... my personal condonation has nothing to do with it. I'll acknowledge respect more than I'll show disdain for any individual .. on an individual basis. To be honest, in-game I pretty much keep the latter to myself and freely offer the former. I've even had the most chivalrous members of this community gleefully display none to me whatsoever and not bat an eye about it. Life is cheap. Planes are free (or all you can eat for $15/mo.).

Now ... when it comes to others demanding "fair play" or "chivalrous behavior" of others ... to the point of recommending everyone in the sandbox agree to playing or not playing the game in a manner that really has nothing to do with TOS violations and everything to do with their personal frustration ... I speak up on the boards and suggest what I feel is a more practical, even more adult approach. I'd much rather them suggest less whining and more playing and getting past all that. But that's my opinion on what's more of a negative in the arena (and even on the forum) than any amount of HOing, vulching, ganging or any tactic frowned upon. Which frowning ... hey ... is fine. So's smiling. 

[Arlo]

I'm sad you missed out on a couple of great years in the AvA.  If you had any idea of what it was like before, you wouldn't be posting things like that.

I'm just as sad as you ... but not because I wear the rose-colored shades.  I've always supported this game .. and this arena ... even when I was out of it. But I know what frustration is when I see it. I'm pretty sure I know a better way to deal with it, too.

[bongaroo]

guthrie just needs to keep explaining away why he points his nose at the enemy for the HO.  think he'd learn after loosing at so much...

[Arlo]

guthrie just needs to keep explaining away why he points his nose at the enemy for the HO.  think he'd learn after loosing at so much...

"Losing"

That's right ... make up something if you really got nothing. 

[bongaroo]

well i actually haven't run into you in the AvA in at least 4 or 5 rounds.  but sure enough last time i did it was avoiding your crappy HO attempt and setting you up for the easy kill.