Author Topic: rules of engagement #1  (Read 2543 times)

Offline Motherland

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2008, 06:36:37 PM »
did i quote him?
No, but you used the pronoun 'he', and then 'you', and the whole sentence really didn't make sense in the context that it was put.
he [Would refer to Bluetop's post] is actually right on that 1, except he [would also refer to bluetop's post] left out the part that you [would refer to a comment bluetop made in his post that refers to me, but he didnt say anything about me in his post] cherry pick the majority of the time.
Bit of confusion, there.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 06:40:46 PM by Motherland »

Offline gpwurzel

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2008, 06:39:37 PM »
In motherlands defence, I came across him in a 109, with me in a spit 1 - wasnt an interesting fight from his perspective (all he had to do is wait for me to run out of e and auger (which, oddly enough, I did  :D) - at no time did he try and pick, he was working the fringes of my e state and wearing me down. He also apologised for a Ho, which, in my opinion, was a high angle deflection shot (my guns were nowhere near his face (couldnt get round fast enough)) - but thought it was classy to apologise anyway.

<S> Bubi

Wurzel
I'm the worst pilot ingame ya know!!!

It's all unrealistic crap requested by people who want pie in the sky actions performed without an understanding of how things work and who can't grasp reality.


Offline Motherland

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2008, 06:42:49 PM »
In motherlands defence, I came across him in a 109, with me in a spit 1 - wasnt an interesting fight from his perspective (all he had to do is wait for me to run out of e and auger (which, oddly enough, I did  :D) - at no time did he try and pick, he was working the fringes of my e state and wearing me down. He also apologised for a Ho, which, in my opinion, was a high angle deflection shot (my guns were nowhere near his face (couldnt get round fast enough)) - but thought it was classy to apologise anyway.

<S> Bubi

Wurzel
<S> Wurzel. I remember that one. It took me a pathetically long time to kill you considering the E states  :lol

Offline gpwurzel

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2008, 06:46:05 PM »
Yep, think that was because I was flopping around the sky in a pathetic manner and you took pity on me fella..... :D :D :D

Plus, I'm trying to be less predictable...lol.....(generally by flopping around the sky and gaining sympathy)


<S>

Wurzel
I'm the worst pilot ingame ya know!!!

It's all unrealistic crap requested by people who want pie in the sky actions performed without an understanding of how things work and who can't grasp reality.


Offline bkwolf

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2008, 10:25:19 PM »
I don't  think it is a good idea to make a rule like that.  Were trying to have a  WAR  not play paddy cakes. 
Snip it^

I just downloaded Paddy cakes..the cakes are over modeled and very uber :D
Bkwolf
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Offline BlueTop

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2008, 10:45:10 PM »
If you are coming at me head on I figure you are going to try and shoot at me.  I'm sorry if I shoot you down first.   :P

BlueTop 

Offline Warmongo

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2008, 10:58:12 AM »
If you are coming at me head on I figure you are going to try and shoot at me.  I'm sorry if I shoot you down first.   :P

BlueTop 

One of the reasons the good pilots whine about ho'ing is because someone stopped their killing spree... :cry :cry :cry :cry

You and I are quite clear on this one Blue Top.... :salute.

Offline araiguma

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 10:58:40 PM »
I don't think the approach to “selling” this proposed rule will take off unless you change your approach.  If I wanted to sell an idea or cause a change in behavior I would want to make it appeal to the masses.  In short you want to make this idea contagious. 

If you take the players in AvA and try to categorize them in a diffusion model, which is what some academics use to plot the movement of an idea through a community.  First and foremost your idea must have merit or a clearly recognizable (tangible/valuable) benefit.  Getting your idea to infect the whole community is going to be tricky. 

I have listed the groups commonly used to set up a diffusion model. 

In AvA, as in any community, you will probably have:

1)  The Innovators - in this case that is you or the person/people who originate ideas or propose a change in behavior.  Visionary group.

2)  The Early Adopters - A slightly larger group, the opinion leaders of the AvA.  These are usually those players who are respected by the majority of the AvA community.  Visionary group.

3)  The Early Majority - the deliberate mass.

4)  The Late majority (the skeptical mass who won’t try anything until the Early adopters start doing it)

5)  The Laggards (who see no urgent reason to change).

Groups 1 and 2 are the visionaries.  An example of this type of person is someone who always buys the latest new electronic gadget before it becomes a trend, been proven, or the price comes down.  They are often risk takers.

Group 3 is the group worried with how this behavioral change will affect their game.  They will make incremental progress towards adopting this behavior.

Group 4 are the people who will consider this a risk and will only attempt it with a safety net in place.  They are going to manage this behavior change very closely.

Group 5 only falls into line once the other groups have adopted the behavior.

The “no HO rule” will not transition easily from group 1 to group 2 and the attitude of the first 2 groups is fundamentally incompatible to the other 3.  So while your idea makes perfect sense to group 2, there is a chasm between group 2 and 3,4,5.  The people you need to make this happen are those players who can take the idea and translate it into a behavior that the other groups can understand and adopt.  Until you identify and bring onboard those people in the AvA community who can connect with groups 3,4, and 5 your idea will fail to take off.  I'd say your proposal is still bouncing off group 2.

Offline 1redrum

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2008, 06:55:28 AM »
you know , I like biscuits       :huh :confused:
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Offline xOcet

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2008, 08:11:24 PM »
You might need to classify a sub group of sub-players.  Some even exist in this very thread.  Vomiting the same old  "Im gonna HeadOn no matter what.., cause it's war...I dont care if you can outfly me,im this dude-> :rock"   bla bla jibberish

Getting hit full-frontal guns-blaring head-on instead of maneuvering to get into a nice solid dogfight just is'nt a fun part of this GAME.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 08:15:04 PM by xOcet »

Offline araiguma

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2008, 08:58:24 PM »
They would fall into either group 4 or 5; most likely 5.  Do you have any ideas on why the sub-class you identify seems predisposed to the head on attack?

I looked around in various books and web pages to try and find some serious discussions on the HO tactic duirng the war and found very little about it.  I read one article about Russian pilots who had a penchant for HO'ing JU-88A-4's and how the Germans responded to this tactic by painting windows on a few JU-88C's with nose cannons installed to look like an A-4 giving the Russian pilots a big suprise.  I have often wondered if there are common traits associated with those for the HO vs those against it.  For example, do pilots who fly more maneuverable planes with less powerful guns have a greater hatred for the HO than say pilots with 20/30mm cannons?  What is the general consensus of 110 pilots or Hurricane pilots as compared to P-51 pilots.  I'm not trying to suggest that the size of the gun is the biggest factor; but it may contribute to it.  I think it would be interesting to hear the opinions on HO'ing from pilots who fly various planes.

I would also be curious to know if people are against the HO in general or if they sub-categorize.  E.g it's not ok to HO a fighter but it's perfectly acceptable to HO a bomber or a C-47. 

I think stating that "HO'ing is a result of a lack of ACM skill" is too simple of a response.  Other factors weigh in on whether or not a player decide to HO.  Some, perhaps the ones you refer to, are doing it simply out of spite.  Perhaps a person will resort to the HO out of frustration at being unexpectedly bounce, or taking on more than he can handle, etc. 

Regardless, unless you can clearly provide a benefit by not HO'ing to those who do then the behavior will not change.   (and now for a quick comercial sponsored by Pilsbury biscuits.  Hot from the oven, Pilsbury satisfies)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 09:00:20 PM by araiguma »

Offline Arlo

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2008, 09:01:15 PM »
You might need to classify a sub group of sub-players.  Some even exist in this very thread.  Vomiting the same old  "Im gonna HeadOn no matter what.., cause it's war...I dont care if you can outfly me,im this dude-> :rock"   bla bla jibberish

Getting hit full-frontal guns-blaring head-on instead of maneuvering to get into a nice solid dogfight just is'nt a fun part of this GAME.



If you see him coming at your face .... and you can't seem to avoid it .... that's not outflying the other guy. No offense.  :salute

Offline captain1ma

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 06:55:31 AM »
i think alot of the newer players Ho because they dont know any better. i didnt until i joined a squad. i think some players HO out of frustration of getting killed all the time and they figure its their best shot. i think if alot of the un squadded players joined squads that frowned on HO'ing and showed them how to win by using ACM the arena would get to be a better place.

i also feel that there are some players that adamantly HO, that set bad examples to some of these newer players. then there are those players that refuse to change. well, theres not much you can do about them, except maybe duck and cover, cause they're gonna HO you every time.

Offline araiguma

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2008, 05:17:10 PM »
Jager,
        When you say they adamantly HO, are you saying they purposely position themselves for the HO or that if the opportunity presents itself will take that HO shot? 

How about an example scenario:

A fully loaded 190A8 is flying to a target for a JABO mission.  In front of him a pony (insert plane of choice) is climbing to intercept.  The pony is coming HO.  The 190 pilot puts the nose down a little and continues towards the target.  The pony continues to merge HO and soon will be in range of the 190's guns.  If the 190 pilot doesn't shoot the pony might.  If neither shoots the pony will be in a positon to flip around at the merge and get on the 190's six.


 

Offline republic

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Re: rules of engagement #1
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2008, 07:33:18 PM »
If you see him coming at your face .... and you can't seem to avoid it .... that's not outflying the other guy. No offense.  :salute

That is true for the odd 1k out HO.  You know he's coming for you, and ya if you don't avoid that one your a goober.  But when it's 3 or so vs 1 and your twisting and turning full flaps just trying to hold your bird in the air...it's quite difficult to evade those HOs, and those are the HOs that really just put you over the edge.  When your fighting tooth and nail and some goob comes and HO's you out of impatience...
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