GOOD NEWS FOR NEXT WEEK, and about this week problems

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Thx Cav. I hope you crap pilots are doing fine as well.  

And like Snef said, please read my Axis AAR here at the SEA bbs.  If you have comments or additional info, please share them.  


Wind gust layers

Sounds like a thing worth trying.  I suggest alts below "about 20k" to be gustless. The CM should not tell the exact alt - let the bombers cope with it.     The gust layers should be thick enough (2-5k?) so that they dont affect dogfighting too much.


Smoke on the airfields

Will the airfield object smoke for the whole duration of the frame, if rebuild time multiplier is 0?  If this is true, then it would be quite nice.

Maybe give each side the ability to smoke 2 objects on 2 different fields? 4 objects alltogether, that is.  

Could be pretty nice!

Axis CO - Camo

[214thCavalier]

Personally speaking i have no problems with Wind or smoke effects to deny the buffs some accuracy.
After all this will just be adding another level of realism and if we want accurate buffing we are gonna come down to play that i have no problems with cos its our choice.

[Hamish]

What Camo Said.

Hamish!

[busc]

OK...considering that Sunchaser, wich is the leader of the allied bombers, agrees..

I think i will use crosswinds next week  
(I am very happy)

I agree with Camo's suggestions.. And I agree also with his suggestions about smoke....

Everyone agrees on giving 2 smoke layers to each side in 1 frame?

[lemme know..but please note that smoke with detonations is still to be experimented and i am not sure if it will work or not ]

  all BuSc

[Vosper]

Just a quick question about the wind shift - are you certain it works against bombs ?  I happen to like the idea, just would be nice to check with HTC to make sure, and experiment to find how fast or deep the band has to be to affect bombs.  The little bit of wind in the MA doesn't seem to do anything right now.

The smoke idea sounds neat also, if it could be set off in time and last long enough, ie, the CO can set it off when bombers are getting close to the base.

Cheers

[wolf37]

hello all:

thought I would take a couple swings at this hornets nest too. hehehehehehe

ok, start with the wind, yes lets have the wind. now I have never flown a real plane, I have jumped from them, ( sport sky diving)
and winf does make a differantce.

as for the alt cap, I dont care care, and my squad mates better not care either, or they will not be allowed over 10k. you want to worrie about alt caps, better worrie about the big bad CO, and I will take your beer rations as well.

as for those of you not in my squad and can yap all you want, SHUT UP!!!

when you can do a better job then zigrat, busc and all the others putting this together, then by all means go ahead.
as for those pilots that keep saying do this or dont do that because if you do I'm going to quit. well get out now so the rest of us know who we are flying with.

you all whine about this not been real enough. well you want real.  WWII, any pilot that cried and decided to just quit, was hunted down and either shot or imprisoned.

no matter how this is set up, not everybody will be happy, somebody will always cry it is not fair. well you get your bellybutton blown off, to bad. learn to fly better. you all picked the team and the planes you wanted to fly, you got what you picked, now fly the danm thing and stop your crying.

Hangtime quit because of problems, well roadkill. he will be here wheather he wants to be or not, and he will danm well smile and be happy too. because there is no way in hell I want the danm job, the allies will all hate me with in a week.

Hangtime, get over your pouting, get back in the game. and take command. if an allied pilot does not listen to you, ground him.
if a CO does not listen, fire him and replace him with somebody from his squad that can do the job. and if that pilot fails, replace him. you all want it to be real, well this is how it was. do the job or be fired. Hangtime, you have been doing a great job up untill this passed Saturday when you deserted your post. but we will let that one go.

now let those that are putting this together do so with out all the whinning from everybody. I think it has been going along just fine so far. and I done have a single kill yet and have been shot down every frame we have flown.

well I will stop now before I end up hanging from a rope.

wolf37
CO
RAF 234 Spitfire squad
Malta  (A15)

[StSanta]

"Achtung Kapitän, Spheetfeure!"

"Aber where?"

"Up zere mein Kapitän!"

"But zat Spit is travelling backwards, nicht gut!"

"Ja, das is was man kallt ein Sputnickfeure"

"Zen it is gut zat we haf zese FW's"

"Uhm, Kapitän, FW are not Forward Warp"

"VERDAMMT!"

Heh. I'll probably be in, as I am such a sad and pathetic person that I don't really want to do something else on an early Saturday night. This time, I shall have more beer though.

<S!>

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Nash]

Seems you've all worked this out to at least most people's satisfaction. Good.

My suggestion would be to set the arena up with these winds a few days prior to the event to let the buffs practice. Otherwise buffing will be a complete crap-shoot.

Just so they will get an understanding of how far off from target a bomb will miss given a certain wind speed at a given altitude.

This may be horse pucky too... I don't know if RL buff drivers knew the wind speed and direction over their targets. Realism should be the goal... so if winds are needed (for buffs... NOT fighters), I'm all for them. If bombadiers knew how to compensate for it, we should let them learn.

Please keep in mind that we're dealing with limitations in AH also... AH has a low level of targets that require pinpoint accuracy to score damage. In RL they were going after a large area of targets with huge salvos. In other words, perhaps they missed the fuel depot by three hundred yards.... yet they plastered the ammo bunker. In AH a missed bomb hits nothing.

Hehe, whatever happens, it should be interesting   I've got faith in y'all.

[wolf37]

hi all:

Santa, just what the hell did you just say.
can you translate that please.

wolf37

[Dowding]

I agree with no hard ceiling and would welcome the wind at high alt.

Regarding buffs and bombs - they should have to drop in salvo - the decrease in accuracy will affect both sides equally. Obviously this will make base capture more difficult, but then the CinCs will have to put squads on jabo missions, to get the capture completed. Also, not all the buff missions wil be against airfields - attacks on other targets will become much more like real life, and it will be more satisfying when a good result is obtained!  

As for radar, I agree that bars are off, dots should be on over bases. Somehow, the chain of communications has to be modeled - i.e. a base letting the CO know that it is under attack.

It would be great if we had two CinCs on each side, one flies missions one week, while one coordinates flights. They then swap over.

Wouldn't it be great if instead of dots - the CinC on the ground just got the warning that enemy planes had been spotted overhead (perhaps also the type of plane as well). Perhaps this could be implemented in the future.

Keep up the good work Busc et al - I get the feeling it will all work out in the end.  

Dowding

346th BS

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Guys, my point is that the scenario you guys are playing may say Mediterranean League, but what it should say is ETO League. Because while you guys are using the Med map, your recreating the tactics used in the ETO.

The war in the Med was not like the war in the ETO. It was much more tactical in nature.

There were not any large sprawling industrial factory complex's that could be successfully hit by mass raids of bombers at 30,000ft. Remember they didn't have the put a bomb in a pickle barrel from the stratosphere Norden sights that we have.

With the exception of certain campaigns like the bombing of the Po River Valley (Italian industrial heartland), the emphasis was on close air support and tactical targets such as bridges, supply dumps, and enemy strongpoints. And to successfully hit such targets, you had to get down in the mud and fight it out there.

THATS why you would fly lower than your aircrafts optimum altitude. Because if you can't do the job your going out to do, why fly the sortie?

You guys are mostly looking at this as a fighter vs fighter setup, with bombers thrown in for spice. In reality, its the other way around. Fighters are there to make sure the bombers can do their jobs unmolested.

Another thing to remember is that in AH aircraft can run at optimum output almost indefinitely (ie you can run at 100% throttle) without the engine overheating. Every aircraft is in factory new condition, and by looking at the arena setups yesterday your flying with a 0.8 fuel modifier. Which means when your flying on a 2.5 to 1 scale map, and using that modifier, you have 3 times the fuel that the real pilots had to fool around with.

Additionally, we have no concerns what so ever about oxygen systems and their reliability problems, or other aircraft problems like heaters.

So sure, climb to the stratosphere you don't have to worry about ditching into the Mediterannean in a life raft because you used up all your fuel.

Just this summer, I got to speak to a WWII pilot at the AirWarrior convention by the name of "Earl" who fly in North Africa, Sicily and later Italy. He flew P-39's, P-38's, and P-47's in that order thru the war. And I particularly asked him how often they flew high altitude missions. His specific answer. "Well... we flew at 20,000ft once".

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Naso]

Clear to the point Verm. <S>!

Jabo !!

Keyword of italian theatre.

And low alt tactical interdiction for the medium bombers.

IMHO.

[StSanta]

wolf:

I guess I was just trying to say what Verm did.

Oh, btw.

Our Afrika CO can beat up your Afrika CO PTTTFH

 .

Verm, nicely put. Hard to argue with any of it.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Westy]

Very well said Verm.  Every point.

-Westy

[Minotaur]

Very well stated post Verm, however the term "Historical" is applied very very loosely here.  Consider a  few other Historical elements.

• Historically - The Axis lost in this theatre and withdrew
• Historically - The Axis had severe supply problems
• Historically - The Allies were privy to a lot of German communications via a de-coding device

I pretty much understand your points and  your intentions for this scenario.  This is a game environment made for fun, if it were a historical environment it would be a lot less fun.

However what I think I see occurring, to some extent, is that a few elements are being pushed here in the context of being historical.  At the same time, other equally historical elements are being completely ignored.

Petitioners for historical accuracy sometimes really aren't.  IMO they want to achieve game play balance or simply want to gain advantages for their side, vice the notion of historical accuracy.

• Historically - The notion of balance is never a question, the intention of war is to create im-balance

The answer to "Would the bombers have flown at 30k historically?", is yes they would have.   The answer to "Why didn't they then?", is that they did not have high accuracy bombsights that we game players have.

Salute!  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble