Author Topic: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists  (Read 18606 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2008, 12:33:35 PM »
What's amazing to me, is it seems just about everyone on either side of the debate seem to think an omnipotent being couldn't set the physical rules of the universe in the first place.  Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

I think it's the accountability part which causes so much angst. Some want freedom without accountability and a creator might mean we have to answer for our lives.
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Offline Chairboy

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2008, 12:37:54 PM »
Here's an interesting graph regarding the acceptance of the theory of evolution in different countries.  We're in good company:

http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank_02.jpg

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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2008, 12:38:54 PM »
what I'm saying moot is that in the disciplines of physics and evolution science is in a quagmire of it's own making.

Explain.


theoretical physics has not progessed since the late 60's early 70's  quantum physics and general relativity are at odds and incompatible. 

there isn't a single cosmologist that has even a hint of a clue as to what caused the "big bang" or what may have preceeded it.

This statement is wrong.



all I'm saying is that at this juncture in time it takes an equal amount of faith to accept the biblical view on creation as does to believe what "science" offers up.

It takes much more faith to believe that we are all decendants of Adam and Eve and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

until scientific theory is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt I accept the biblical interpretation of creation.  I will further state that I believe science will never have an answer to how or to why.  they have stopped asking why, if indeed they ever did.
 
Science, if left unhampered by radical religious groups, will answer more than your brain is capable of handling!



PS.  It is a known fact that species evolve.  It is not a theory, it is a fact.  



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Offline midnight Target

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2008, 12:45:27 PM »
Galileo had a different experience  :)



Galileo was not in my grade.

Also he had nothing to do with evolution. He was censured for teaching Copurnican theory. The church has since apologized.

Offline gwano

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2008, 12:48:45 PM »
any film made by a person is therefore manipulatable by the filmmaker as to the content and "mood" of the film.
Regardless of your position on religion or evolution, a film cannot make any credible
point either way. It is simply designed to:
1. make a profit
2. sway opinion from those subject to manipulation.
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Offline moot

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2008, 12:54:31 PM »
what I'm saying moot is that in the disciplines of physics and evolution science is in a quagmire of it's own making.
No.  People with a poor understanding of both are the problem.

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theoretical physics has not progessed since the late 60's early 70's 

Chit happens Storch.  Plateaus, etc.  Sitting on their arse will not get scientists anywhere.  They've been working at it and whatever rut they've gotten stuck on, they'll get out of it eventualy, not by reinterpreting Nostradamus, but by reasoning their way thru their mistakes.

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quantum physics and general relativity are at odds and incompatible.
As far as anyone can tell, yet.  "Don't count your chickens..." 

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there isn't a single cosmologist that has even a hint of a clue as to what caused the "big bang" or what may have preceeded it.
There wasn't a single specialist that knew what caused countless phenomena until someone got a eureka moment...

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you don't even want to get started on the darwinists as I have covered that in previous debates.
Idem.   "Ever tried?    Ever failed?   No matter.   Try again.   Fail again.   Fail better."

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all I'm saying is that at this juncture in time it takes an equal amount of faith to accept the biblical view on creation as does to believe what "science" offers up.
No.

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until scientific theory is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt I accept the biblical interpretation of creation. 
Non sequitur.

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I will further state that I believe science will never have an answer to how or to why. 
Not specific enough.

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they have stopped asking why, if indeed they ever did.
What?

When I wake up sober I'll have a thorough reply.  These religion/science misunderstandings are getting old.
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Offline Strip

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2008, 01:01:20 PM »
Snip
I think that religion will continue to hamper mankind's progress, just as it has for the last 2000 years.
Snip

Skyrock

I agree with this statement. Most of the wars, terrorism, and conflicts present in the world today center around religious beliefs.

theoretical physics has not progessed since the late 60's early 70's  quantum physics and general relativity are at odds and incompatible.  there isn't a single cosmologist that has even a hint of a clue as to what caused the "big bang" or what may have preceeded it.

Storch

The first part of the statement is absolutely false and the second nearly so. . Quantum physics and general relativity are on two vastly different scales. More and more we are proving that general relativity doesnt apply on the quatum scale. Higgs Boson and the string theory are just two examples disproving that fact. True we havent made the leaps an bounds present in the first have of the 20th century. However to say theoretical pyhsics hasnt progressed in 30 years is inaccurate.

Strip
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 01:10:56 PM by Strip »

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2008, 01:11:12 PM »
I think it's the accountability part which causes so much angst. Some want freedom without accountability and a creator might mean we have to answer for our lives.
:rofl :lol :rofl
I believe the quest is for the truth, albeit belittled by religion and mocked by faith, it is the single most important endeavor for mankind!

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Offline Leslie

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2008, 01:27:55 PM »
"I will further state that I believe science will never have an answer to how or to why.  they have stopped asking why, if indeed they ever did."


This is basically what my Biology textbook states.

It says, "Conjecturing about how life began is both fruitless and safe.  One can never be proven right and it is impossible to be proven wrong.  Nonetheless, it is a good intellectual exercise, and it can be useful in helping to understand scientific reasoning.  So let's ignore all the problems associated with the question and tread into an arena littered with dead guesses."

Now what I'm getting from this is that scientists don't know how life began, but are guessing.  Here is some more I gleaned from the text.  To paraphrase:

"There are two scientific schools of thought concerning origins of life.  These are Mechanism and Vitalism.  Mechanism implies that life is the result of simple interactions of mindless molecules.  Vitalism is based on the premise that living things are more than the result of molecular interaction, that living things inherently possess some undefinable and unmeasurable quality, a life force.  Vitalists use telological reasoning.  This reasoning is commonly used in reference to ideas that go beyond what is actually verifiable and generally implies some inner drive to complete a goal or some directing force operating above the laws of nature."

Now, the disagreement at Darwin's time was over how one arrives at scientific conclusions.  Scientific conclusions are arrived at either by induction or deduction.  With induction, empirical data is gathered and from this a generalization is induced.  The deductive method arrives at a generalization through some insight or hunch.  Most scientists today rely more strongly on inductive evidence in developing scientific principles.

"Due to the skeptical nature of scientists, any idea, theory, or experiment is certain to be attacked by someone.  Scientists demand hard evidence.  However, their rigor does nor mean that they are eminently rational people, pristine, pure of heart, unemotional, and unfettered by personal prejudice."

Biology, The World of Life Fourth Edition    Robert A. Wallace Copyright 1987


What I am understanding from this is that there are differing schools of thought when it comes to science and the scientific method(s.)  That there are two distinct scientific methods which are at odds depending on current trends.  That philosophy is a substantial ingredient in any discussion of life's origins.  That this is something which cannot be proven either way, and that "life force" is part of the Vitalism school of thought.  I do not know if Vitalism is related to Intelligent Design, but apparently it is considered within the realm of science.  At least by the author of this textbook.

Here is a question.  Since there is no way to prove scientifically how life began, and since curiosity and seeking truth is one of the main goals of science, can any discussion of how life began deliberately leave out any possibility, including creation?  I believe this question is a valid scientific question which deals with the philosophical aspect of scientific thought.  It cannot be dismissed outright.  Imho, the only truthful scientific answer at this point in time would be we just don't know.



Les





Offline Yeager

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2008, 01:32:41 PM »
how many lifelines do I get?
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Offline moot

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2008, 01:56:59 PM »
Leslie, no supernatural answer is of any scientific use.
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Offline Strip

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2008, 02:04:35 PM »
The basic building blocks of single celled organisms have been created in test tubes. Electricity, water, and prehistoric atmosphere combined to produce complex ammnio acids. Can you really ignore the fact that once this happened in the right circumstances life was inevitable?

Strip

Offline AKIron

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2008, 02:11:07 PM »
:rofl :lol :rofl
I believe the quest is for the truth, albeit belittled by religion and mocked by faith, it is the single most important endeavor for mankind!

I think you'll find no shortage of mocking among atheists. Until the origin of space and time is known, no quest for truth can deny the possibility of a creator.
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Offline myelo

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2008, 02:17:11 PM »

Here is a question.  Since there is no way to prove scientifically how life began, and since curiosity and seeking truth is one of the main goals of science, can any discussion of how life began deliberately leave out any possibility, including creation?  I believe this question is a valid scientific question which deals with the philosophical aspect of scientific thought. 

It's a valid question, just not a scientific question. It's not falsifiable.


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Offline gwano

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2008, 02:24:46 PM »
I think you'll find no shortage of mocking among atheists. Until the origin of space and time is known, no quest for truth can deny the possibility of a creator.


and vice-versa

no matter how much scientific evidence is provided, the faithful will never let go. they just don't have it in them. but thats OK!
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