Air Force ROTC

[toonces3]

There are many paths to the cockpit, like I said above.

If you want to fly, call the Marines and ask about the PLC program, and tell them you want an air contract.  See what they have to say.

If you go PLC on an air contract, you're guaranteed an aviation slot provided you get through OCS- which is not a sure thing.  I found Marine OCS pretty challenging, and they weeded out ALOT of dudes.

[DoNKeY]

Alright thanks toonces, I'll look into that and think more about it.  Thanks.

donkey

[Saurdaukar]

If you go PLC on an air contract, you're guaranteed an aviation slot provided you get through OCS- which is not a sure thing.  I found Marine OCS pretty challenging, and they weeded out ALOT of dudes.

Attrition rate in my class was in excess of 50%.  Had 2 prior's in my platoon who were FR guys and they basically told us that if you can get through OCS, you can do FR.  They seemed very impressed with the training regiment (even though its designed more for leadership evaluation rather than hands-on field work ala TBS) and ALL of the prior Marines in my platoon (maybe 10-12?) freely admitted that the officer training was far, far more difficult, both mentally and physically, than anything they experienced at PI or SDRD, which I found surprising at the time considering all I ever heard from friends who were enlisted was that officers had the easy life. 

Bottom line, as toonces stated, is that the program at Quantico is extraordinarily challenging, complete with honorary Royal Marine instructors right off the ship from the UK.  The History channel did a documentary on OCS a while back that I caught and one of the guys (then an O-3) summed it up perfectly.  It was something to the effect of "For the first time in my life, I felt as though I was in a situation where effort didnt matter.  I could give 110% and it still would not be enough." 

OCS is designed to push you to every limit you have and past the breaking point.  The guy they interviewed wasnt a sh*t bird - had just gotten back from Iraq - and seemed more scared of OCS than he was of his next tour with the fleet.  Just remember that all they want to see is how well you handle the eventual emotional breakdown.

If you go Marines, and can do the 6/6 system instead of the straight 10 weeks, I'd recommend that.  My body began to break down significantly at about the 6 week mark and that time off that the PLC guys get would have been a God-send. 

Beware the Quigley.  (PS:  "Tap, rack, bang" wont work once that sh*t gets in your action) 

[Old Sport]

Civil Air Patrol might be worth looking at if you are under 18 and are not sure about making a multi-year commitment to military service at the moment. From what I read at their website, they also offer scholarships.

If you have the ability to finish college or university on your own dime you don't necessarily have to have gone through ROTC. My brother in law had just finished his Masters in biology and decided for a career change. He flew F-15s for 20 years without ROTC, or any prior military experience. His son, a freshman at a university, just signed for full tuition/commitment in AFROTC.

I enlisted after a couple of years at the university without any ROTC and was offered a program called Enlisted Commissioning Program (which may not be offered anymore), and took aptitude tests for flight training (7-9 on the AQT-FAR). My application was lost in file 13 and I gave up, but I met an officer who had gone through the ECP program in the USMC and gotten his wings.

Best regards

[moot]

Tap, rack, bang?

[toonces3]

Saurdaukar,
Yep, that sounds about how my experience went.  I saw Full Metal Jacket a few times well after I did PLC, and I couldn't help thinking that it was ALOT more like OCS than Officer and a Gentleman.  They attrited at least 50% of the guys I showed up with.  I'm only 5'4, I had to get a waiver to go Marines because the height requirement is 5'6 and let me tell you, I missed those 2 inches everyday!  The first obstacle on the O-Course is a chin up type bar that you have to kip over and I could barely, barely reach it with my fingertips if I got a good jump.  I got my bellybutton kicked there.  But, I felt pretty good afterwards.  I think the point is that just getting there is no guarantee to make it through.  It was pretty obvious that if the DI's didn't think you were up to being an officer, someone they might have to follow into a firefight someday, they would ensure you didn't make it.

Navy OCS, on the other hand, was sort of a joke in comparison.  After PLC, I showed up in Pensacola as a PT god, and it was a bit shocking how easy the PT was there.  Unlike the Marines where the goal was to weed folks out, the Navy did everything they could to keep you in.  You could DOR and they'd give you a couple days of 'time out' to think it over.  It was crazy.  It wasn't necessarily easy, but nothing like Marines OCS.  I would imagine AF OCS is similar, but I don't know for sure. 

Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack, you just got me thinking of PLC again.  I remember being on the bus with a guy going for his second 6-week period and as we got closer to Quantico he got more and more agitated.  I thought he was going to pass out with apprehension as we went through the gate of the base    I didn't understand it at the time, but it didn't take too long to figure it out.

[Saurdaukar]

Tap, rack, bang?

Diddy taught for a routine to cycle a weapon that fails to fire.

Tap = smack bottom of magazine to ensure proper seating.
Rack = charge handle and cycle round.
Bang = smack forward assist plunger to ensure proper round seating.

[Saurdaukar]

It was pretty obvious that if the DI's didn't think you were up to being an officer, someone they might have to follow into a firefight someday, they would ensure you didn't make it.

My impression as well.  In fact, thats pretty much how its designed, I gather, and one of the major reasons that officer candidate evaluation and training is conducted by enlisted men.

Who better to train you than the ones who will follow you?

[moot]

Thanks.

How old are the oldest guys that make it thru the Marines intro?

[DoNKeY]

What is the difference (if any?) between Marine Aviation and Naval Aviation? 

donkey

[TwentyFo]

My roomate went the National Guard route.

During his senior year of high school he joined the Iowa Air National Guard in Des Moines, IA. He did the basic training and job training during the summer. The next 4 years he did the 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year deal. He was a weapons loader. Went to Hawaii for 2 weeks last year and Qatar the year before that.

Anyways, while in the guard he first attended a junior college to gain most of his flight ratings. After a year or so there, he went to the University of Nebraska at Omaha and majored in aviation flight. He graduated in 3.5 years and became a flight instructor. Pilot slots opened up in the Des Moines National Guard (they fly F-16's) and he applied for a slot. I'm not sure how many people applied, but he managed to get a slot. He had roughly 1.5 years before he reported to OTS. During that time he got a job in Omaha flying canceled checks in a Navajo between Omaha and Des Moines (His home town). He managed to accumulate quite a few multi engine hours before he had to report to OTS. He reported to OTS in October and started his Air Force flight training in February. He is currently training in Texan II's in Mississippi.

The best thing about my roomates story is that he gets to fly F-16's full time for the Air Force for 4 full years before he comes back to Iowa. When he comes back, he will more than likely get a job with the airlines. His situation allows for him to get the best of both worlds. He will be able to retire from the guard at the age of 38 and continue to fly for 22 more years in the airline industry. Sounds like a great deal to me!!!!

[Bodhi]

I think Voss would be the one to ask... he flew F-16's for the CIA.

But apparently the Scorpions can be a bastage...

[DoNKeY]

Here's my take:

I've done a few different routes to the cockpit- Navy ROTC, Marine OCS, and Navy OCS.

I started in Navy ROTC, with a 3-year guarantee.  Get a 3.0 first year out of pocket, the next 3 years are on the Navy.  When I was in my second semester I met with my class advisor to go over my grades and stuff.  He asked, "What do you want to do in the Navy?"  I answered, "Fly jets."  He said, "Well, with these grades you're going to be driving ships."  Basically, in Navy ROTC (and I imagine AF ROTC isn't too much different) your grades determine your rank.  Higher your grades, higher your ranking.  When it comes time to pick 'jobs' the start with the #1 guy and give him his choice.  Then the #2 guy and give him his choice.  And so on.  When they get to you, you pick what you want and if there's still slots available, you get it.  Otherwise, you get something else.  I wonder what slots go first in the Air Force? 

So, if you want to drive planes, and go the ROTC route, you HAVE to do well in school in order to be competitive for a job you want.  If you are a C student, I guess you better plan on doing something in the USAF besides flying.

For me, I got a 2.98 GPA and had the option of paying to stay in ROTC or drop out.  I dropped out.

Fast forward a year.  I went to the Marine recruiter, took all the tests, got an air slot (1 of 2).  All set with an OCS report date.  2 months before Quantico I get the call..."Yeah, uh (Toonces), one of our air slots got pulled so I have to put you on a ground contract.   But, hey, don't worry about it.  When you get to Basic School you can compete to get an air slot instead...."  Turns out that's about a 1 in 100 chance.  So I did my first 6 weeks of OCS, and when it came time to go back for the second part I declined.  I had no desire to drive tanks.

Fast forward another year.  Senior in college, still want to fly jets.  Call the Navy recruiter.  "Hey, I want to fly jets."  He says, "Well, we need jet pilots, come on down."  Took the tests, got accepted into the Navy as a pilot and after graduation reported to Pensacola and proceeded to get my wings. 

So, here's the bottom line.  ROTC is a great program that will pay for your college and offer you a guaranteed job making decent money, and you will learn a skill that will be useful somewhere for something.  You also can get the GI Bill in the military which might not seem like a big deal now, but a few years from now when you're looking at getting a masters, the GI Bill is great to have.  I used it to get a masters degree.  The downside of ROTC is that it is sort of mickey mouse business, and it sort of drags out the whole military indoctrination process for 4 years.  It's a bit of a pain, alot of silly things you have to do. 

If you're goal is, like mine, to fly or else, then I don't think ROTC is necessarily the way to go.  Sure ROTC gets you in the front door, but you have to really kick bum in school in order to be competitive for a pilot slot.  I was a horrible student, so leaving ROTC was definately the right call for me. 

OCS, Navy or some other branch, is a safer option if you're goal is only to fly.  The downsides are that you won't know if the military is hiring pilots until you've missed your chance for ROTC.  Also, you'll have to pay for college.  Also, you'll still have to do well enough in school to have a competitive application for OCS.  Of course, you can go to OCS for something besides pilot, but then you've sort of wasted the chance to go ROTC in the first place.

Either way, there are no guarantees.  You are doing the right thing by considering your options carefully.  It all really depends on what your goals are in the military and in life.  I think the military is a great deal.  I've been very lucky and I have no regrets.  I'm facing about 2 of the next 3 years away from my family starting next year, so it's not all happy times, but overall I think the military has alot to offer, besides just getting to fly cool planes.

Good luck!

A few questions when you have the time.  First, what do you fly, and was it competitive or like you said, where basically they needed pilots and were happy to get you?

Second, mind sharing a few sentences about what life has been like so far in the Navy for you, especially dealing with aviation part of it?


Right now, I'm considering getting my college degree without joining an ROTC program.  That way I can really focus on my grades and then go over my options once I get my degree.  From there I have two choices.  Either continue living the civilian life and go to work as a engineer, or go to Officer Training School, or what ever each program is called for whatever branch. 

I don't want to fly helicopters, and I don't want to join the Army, so right now I'm looking at either the Air Force, Navy, or Marine aviation.  If I had my dream choice, it would be flying fighters in the Air Force, with Navy being second choice.  (Is the Marines more in support of ground troops then A2A?  But I really want to earn my wings, and don't mind going Navy or Marine if that bettered my chances of getting in the cockpit, as I'm think that the Air Force would be the most competitive of the three to get a fighter slot.  Right?

Right now, I'm wondering just what are the differences between being a pilot in the Navy verses the Marines?

Also, I'll continue to search google, etc, but does anyone know of a good site that kind of compares the three side by side? 

donkey

PS:  Thanks for all of the help so far guys, appreciate it.

Oh, and forgot to add, that just as a little indication, I'm a senior right now with a 4.17 GPA, with AP Calculus, AP English, and AP Biology being my hardest classes (Advanced Drama, Civics/Econ, and psychology being the other three).

[Saurdaukar]

Thanks.

How old are the oldest guys that make it thru the Marines intro?

IIRC, the max age limit is 36.  Had plenty of guys who came really close to approaching that.

PLC is filled with all college kids simply because the program is designed to accommodate 1st and 2nd year students.

OCS, on the other hand has a mix... I'd say the average age in my platoon was probably 30-32.  The older you get, the more difficult it becomes, Im sure, almost entirely based upon the speed at which your body is able to recover from the beating, night after night, on 4 hours of sleep, but plenty of the old salts did just fine so long as they were already in fantastic shape.  They did have the advantage of 'life experience,' though.  The older guys were more capable of sustaining the constant mental/emotional barrage than the younger hot-heads and, of course, they became the natural leaders because they were able to maintain tact and bearing.

The guys that got axed the quickest were actually the gym rats, regardless of age.  They lifted for looks, got them, and when it came time to perform in non-controlled environments (as opposed to a gym), they would often tear connecting tissue because the "muscle" was capable of exerting much more force than the tissue joining it with the bone could hold.  This is because, in those controlled environments, many machine and even free-weight exercises totally neglect vital portions of the tissue which would otherwise be supporting the ability to exert force, overall.

If you're thinking about applying, let me know.  Would be glad to talk with you about it in more detail as far as what you can expect and whether or not it would ultimately be the right decision for you.  Whether you complete it or not, it will change you forever.

[moot]

Thanks.. I'd like to, but I'm already past the point of no return in the other alternative I had at this point in my life.. 4 years ago I was ready to go for it and asking everyone I knew for info, but it's too late now. It's still tempting, but the best thing I can do is ask questions like this and tell myself I could just dive in and drop everything else  
And IIRC I can't qualify since I don't even have a green card yet. Back then I was ready to go straight to any front line and earn the green card, but now I have too much to lose from that. Thanks for the offer