General Gun Discussion

[Xasthur]

You're ultra foolish if you think the judgement of the masses is any better than the judgement of a single person.  It wasn't just Hitler who wandered around the streets shooting all jews and untermensch.  It was hundreds of thousands of people doing it. 

It wasn't just Stalin killing the tens of MILLIONS of political dissidents.  It was his millions of supporters.


Given all of what we have seen of history, it is downright childish to think that a group of people has better judgement than one single man.

Uhh... mate... What do you think a bunch of Texans walking around killing criminals will be?

The Girl Scouts? Try the SS in plain clothes, buddy.

Hahah, holy hell man, you actually made me laugh with that one.

[culero]

So if your fellow Texans decide killing to save a pot of petunias is acceptable and laudable, you're fully in support? Your choice. I'd speak out against that but that's just me.

No, I already said that personally I wouldn't consider killing a child for stealing a pot of flowers a proportionate response. If it happened in my community, I would speak out against the act, urging greater restraint.

What I said is that I'll trust my community members to use their judgment. I'm more willing to risk that they err in excess than to risk that criminals may be able to act unimpeded because of the law being too restrictive.

Hmmm... criminal action. Are you with Jackal1 on shooting them for simple trespass? You see two shady looking guys crossing a neighbor's lawn headed for his back yard best go ahead and shoot just to be safe, nip their lawlessness in the bud and preserve the community from being later victims of these two?

Simple trespass? No. That would be both illegal and out of line IMO.

But if they are exiting his house and its obvious they are acting criminally, I am OK with them being confronted by a neighbor, and shot if they refuse to stop and wait for police. That's what happened in Mr. Horn's case, and I believe he acted acceptably.

OK, enough with that.

As I said, there has to be some common sense applied in these cases. IMO, the shoot-em-on-site crowd in here is not exercising any.

Horn had the cops on the way; he was not threatened while watching from his upstairs window. He forced this confrontation and he killed two men by shooting them in the back.

If you all think that reflects well on gun owners, advances the cause of the 2nd Amendment and will lead to greater gun freedom (incorporation, CCH, Open Carry) i would have to strongly disagree.

I didn't address the issue in those terms. Once again, I tell you I am speaking to how I like the law in my community to be, and how Mr. Horn handled himself in this incident.

I'm sure you're right in saying that the "anti's" will seize on this as an example of why their cause should be advanced. The chips will fall where they do.

[Xasthur]

Xasthur  Point taken and respect your opinion...but.....this crime thing is really out of hand and the law is
not doing what it takes to stop it. So we have to. I am so sick of seeing people suffer because some no brain scum
does whatever they want And gets away with it
 Again put yourself in the victims shoes.....how does it feel to work so hard from something and
then have it taken from you. People are scared, it should not be that way in this country.

I agree with wholeheartedly and I support what you're saying 100%. Crime isn't right and swift punishment should be taken against those who don't respect the society they live in. Killing people will only cause more problems, though. Fix the justice system before you go murdering criminals. Tougher penalties, more scrutiny for lawyers, review laws, introduce laws... whatever it takes. I agree that your legal system is a joke and that's what the people need to stand up to. For argument's sake, even if it is the case that America starts executing people for breaking and entering (which is what many people in here are suggesting) at least have the state do it after a swift investigation.

[lasersailor184]

Cleared up.

[Hajo]

the fact is in my case........in anyone forces their way into MY home to steal, vandalize, or threaten bodily harm to me or a member of my family their well being is in jeopardy.  I will protect what is mine.

If again someone forces their way into my neigbors home to do the same as stated above I will first call the Police and run to my neighbors home to assist my neighbor if home....or not at home.

IMHO those who violate the rights of others have surrendered their rights.

[Xasthur]

My apologies, I did misread that and I have edited the post accordingly (before I read your response, if that makes a difference).

Working overtime and sick as dog at the moment. Going to bed any minute now.

Whilst I misread your post your argument is still very weak. Those groups of people were acting on one man's judgement. Just because he didn't pull the trigger himself doesn't mean he wasn't responsible.

The SS were an extension of Hitler's will and as good as his trigger finger.

I'm having a really hard time believing that so many of you are willing to trust your average citizen with the lives of those around you. I know I wouldn't. People are so impossibly ignorant, emotive and weak that terrible decisions are inevitable. When those terrible decisions result in death is it really worth it?

[Kaw1000]

Fix the justice system...fix the health care system....fix the wealfare system...fix the jail system...fix this fix that,
It will never be fixed and that is why as individuals we have to try and fix things ourselves..one way we do that is
looking out for our fellow man...the good ones of course. and the bad have to be dealt with...that way we all live in PEACE.
 Its sad when we feel uncomfortable leaving our kids out to play or walking down the street in fear. I should not be that way.

I'm sure Mr. Horns actions will make other scums thing Twice about violating our lives!(At least in Texas)
God Bless Texas...wish all states were like it!!

[Wolf14]

I think a few here may have missed this........................
"and when the two men came onto his yard and threatened him, Horn defended himself"
You buy the ticket, you get the ride.

Jackel brings up a good point

and from the transcript...

Horn: [yelling] Move, you�re dead!
[Sound of shots being fired]

For those who may not understand these you words I'll give you the longer version as I understand them.... " if you MOVE, YOU'RE DEAD"


Something else I'd like to point out from the way I look at it,

A lot of you guys are saying that he just opened fired on them.

Mr. Horn did give them an option and in that brief second between him issuing that option and the gunfire, they moved or were moving while he said it.

I think he was very clear on letting them know they had an option. They chose not to take it.

[lasersailor184]

I'm not saying that an average joe is infallible.  I'm merely saying that it's foolish to think that a group of average joes  is infallible merely because they are in group form.

Stupid people will always be stupid people.  However, a group of people will almost always drop down to the lowest common denominator.

[Xasthur]

I'm not saying that an average joe is infallible.  I'm merely saying that it's foolish to think that a group of average joes  is infallible merely because they are in group form.

Stupid people will always be stupid people.  However, a group of people will almost always drop down to the lowest common denominator.

I am not suggesting that a group is automatically more intelligent than an individual but simply being an individual doesn't make one smarter either.

I believe most people are inherently stupid and will make bad choices when put in a heated situation. Hospital emergency rooms are full of them on any given day of the week. Even if it's a 50/50 mix of ignorant fools to cool, calm and collected people (which I think is very generous and not at all likely) are they sort of odds you want on the other end of a gun?

[Xasthur]

This thread exhibits such stark polar disparities that I feel that nothing further will come of this. Those who think Horn made a poor choice aren't swayed by those who think otherwise and visa versa.

All I can say is that I'm glad that I live in a country where guns are not widespread and shooting murders are relatively uncommon. Violence breeds violence and violence is seldom controlled and directed in a focused manner.

I do hope that, if things progress to such a stage, the killings do have the desired effect of deterring criminals. I fear for "y'all" that it won't, but one can only hope, I suppose.

Best of luck with it 

[Wolf14]

This thread exhibits such stark polar disparities that I feel that nothing further will come of this.

Agree to disagree and please feel welcomed to stop in for a beer or two. 

[Xasthur]

Sounds perfect, mate. 

[bustr]

I am not suggesting that a group is automatically more intelligent than an individual but simply being an individual doesn't make one smarter either.

I believe most people are inherently stupid and will make bad choices when put in a heated situation. Hospital emergency rooms are fool of them on any given day of the week. Even if it's a 50/50 mix of ignorant fools to cool, calm and collected people (which I think is very generous and not at all likely) are they sort of odds you want on the other end of a gun?

Please go to Texas and tell all of "We the People" who voted for their law that they are ALL inherently stupid and untrust worthy.

You are reveiling by your statement that you want humans disarmed because you fear for your life at the price of others being murdered because you fear your fellow mankinds lack of judgement. You would take away others right to life with your "stupidity" assertion to protect your own because you fear us.

Sounds like Liberal Elites and why they are working overtime to disarm the citizens of the free world. They dont trust us and will accept our deaths as long as they don't have to fear our "ARMS" because we are "STUPID". Texans voted and told their liberal elites that thier lives and property are just as valuble and worthy to life as the liberals who have allowed them to be robbed and murdered for the same reasons you xasthur call most people "STUPID".

We COMMON people die because a hand full of people like yourself think we are stupid.

[Rich46yo]

All I can say is that I'm glad that I live in a country where guns are not widespread and shooting murders are relatively uncommon. Violence breeds violence and violence is seldom controlled and directed in a focused manner.

Dont feel to glad mate. Theres plenty of violence across the pond as well. And far more Govt. intrusion in lives, which we Yanks despise.

And there are plenty of Yanks who know right from wrong and that this shooting was wrong.