General Gun Discussion

[Hornet33]

Yeah I was a "trained" National Guardsman at the ripe old age of 19. I had been to the range maybe 12 times with an M-16 prior to that and had only fired an M-60 3 times before that.  Having been "trained" by the Army had little to do with it. I grew up with guns. I knew how to use them long before I joined the Army.

What I consider to be "real" weapons training is nothing more than practicing often with the weapons you have and knowing how to operate them in any condition, be it at night, in the rain, in the cold with gloves on, whatever. People that practice with their weapons will be able to use them in the heat of the moment without fail because when all else fails that weapon will be the ONE thing they have complete control over.

[Rich46yo]

Yeah I was a "trained" National Guardsman at the ripe old age of 19. I had been to the range maybe 12 times with an M-16 prior to that and had only fired an M-60 3 times before that.  Having been "trained" by the Army had little to do with it. I grew up with guns. I knew how to use them long before I joined the Army.

What I consider to be "real" weapons training is nothing more than practicing often with the weapons you have and knowing how to operate them in any condition, be it at night, in the rain, in the cold with gloves on, whatever. People that practice with their weapons will be able to use them in the heat of the moment without fail because when all else fails that weapon will be the ONE thing they have complete control over.

Thing is Hornet there is a big difference between, "just going to the range", and, "advanced combat training". A big difference.

And "training" is the key to survival. Of all the shooting incidents Ive seen, been personally involved in, or have heard 1st hand accounts of, not one of them was lost due to the amount of bullets in the guns. When I visit the "Officers Down" webpage and look down the list of guys from my Dept. on it, I see a litany of poor tactical decisions made. The biggest of which is young guys rushing in to make the pinch or thinking they can handle something they couldnt. I cant think of one guy killed due to a lack of bullets in a wheelgun.

And there is no substitute for high quality training.

[Dago]

Thing is Hornet there is a big difference between, "just going to the range", and, "advanced combat training". A big difference.

And "training" is the key to survival. Of all the shooting incidents Ive seen, been personally involved in, or have heard 1st hand accounts of, not one of them was lost due to the amount of bullets in the guns. When I visit the "Officers Down" webpage and look down the list of guys from my Dept. on it, I see a litany of poor tactical decisions made. The biggest of which is young guys rushing in to make the pinch or thinking they can handle something they couldnt. I cant think of one guy killed due to a lack of bullets in a wheelgun.

And there is no substitute for high quality training.

These aren't hard to find:

Bill Bratton is another famous police chief who has said things that make gun rights advocates grit their teeth, but always made sure his officers were well armed. When he took over the New York City Transit Authority Police, he defied city authorities and armed them all with Glock 19 pistols and 9mm JHP ammo to give them parity with the punks they faced on the street--all at a time when the NYPD still restricted its personnel to six-shot .38 revolvers with non-hollowpoint ammo. Later, a certain police commissioner was forced by union demands to authorize 9mm autos for NYPD, but insisted they have only ten-round magazines. When Bratton replaced him as head of the nation's largest police force. he inherited that situation.

About that time, a young policewoman named Theresa Beckles got into an off-duty gunfight. She shot down three armed robbers with her five-shot S&W .38, but ran out of ammo and was pistol-whipped by a wounded thug who was still up and running. This gave Bratton the excuse to upgrade the entire department to 15-round mags, without seeming to call his predecessor an idiot. Thai remains the legacy of NYPD, now 30,000 strong since their absorption of Transit Authority and Port Authority, and they also got hollowpoints a few years ago. Today, as chief of the LAPD, Bratton made it one of his first acts to authorize Glock service pistols in 9mm, .40 and .45 to the 7,000 members of that department. It was the first time LAPD got the option of the .40 as a compromise between the issue Beretta 9mm and the optional DA .45. and the first time they had the option of a high capacity .45 ACP. Chief Bratton reportedly wears a Glock to work daily.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_169_28/ai_114475578

[lazs2]

dago... I believe that I did tell you that a man was shot in the head while I was standing next to him.   I drew and aimed at the guy next to him who was the bigger threat and reaching for a model 39 smith.   the explosion and flash from three feet away looked like it was going off in my face.  I had blood on me from the guy who was hit and he didn't seem hit at all.   he was moving forward and the guy who shot was empty handed.. he had dropped the gun and looked shocked an had both hands up to defend his head.. the guy who was shot was swinging the 30-30 winchester and broke it over the shooter..  I had flinched sideways and drawn a super blackhawk that was stuck down in my belt mexican carry.

loud noise.. muzzle flash in my face blood splatter.. 30-30 stock breaking on shooter.. guy scrambling for m39.. all in a few seconds.   

I coulda shot the guy going for the smith.  less than 4 pounds of finger pressure..   My life woulda changed forever.. no way to cover the whole thing up or reason to.   I thought about it.   he really was no threat.  in 2 seconds it was really all over but the cleanup.  I knew that I could shoot the guy if he hadn't have stopped reaching for the gun.  I really had no problem with that.  I couldn't shoot someone who was no threat tho.

I have never been in the military or the police.  I could never have shot anyone legally.   everyone I knew was a biker and or drug dealer and criminal.   We all carried guns and things happened.   I am not a criminal now and not a drug user or dealer and am grateful for the change in my life.  I did learn some things from back then tho.. things about myself and about people and stress and guns.   You don't always have to shoot and you don't need anything fancy.  You don't get scarred until you have time to get scarred.

As for your example of the 5 shot mouse gun...  what department issued 5 shot 38 holster guns?  you are most likely talking about a J frame smith hideout gun.   

Oh yeah..the guy that got shot in the head?   he carried a 3 inch scar going into his hairline till he died a couple of years ago.   We took him to the hospital and told the guy he got hit with some metal while we were cutting up a junk car with a torch..  I think the doc only pretended to buy it to get us out of there.   police came by the next day.   no big deal.. they asked some questions and went on to other things.

lazs

[BBBB]

dago... I believe that I did tell you that a man was shot in the head while I was standing next to him.   I drew and aimed at the guy next to him who was the bigger threat and reaching for a model 39 smith.   the explosion and flash from three feet away looked like it was going off in my face.  I had blood on me from the guy who was hit and he didn't seem hit at all.   he was moving forward and the guy who shot was empty handed.. he had dropped the gun and looked shocked an had both hands up to defend his head.. the guy who was shot was swinging the 30-30 winchester and broke it over the shooter..  I had flinched sideways and drawn a super blackhawk that was stuck down in my belt mexican carry.

loud noise.. muzzle flash in my face blood splatter.. 30-30 stock breaking on shooter.. guy scrambling for m39.. all in a few seconds.   

I coulda shot the guy going for the smith.  less than 4 pounds of finger pressure..   My life woulda changed forever.. no way to cover the whole thing up or reason to.   I thought about it.   he really was no threat.  in 2 seconds it was really all over but the cleanup.  I knew that I could shoot the guy if he hadn't have stopped reaching for the gun.  I really had no problem with that.  I couldn't shoot someone who was no threat tho.

I have never been in the military or the police.  I could never have shot anyone legally.   everyone I knew was a biker and or drug dealer and criminal.   We all carried guns and things happened.   I am not a criminal now and not a drug user or dealer and am grateful for the change in my life.  I did learn some things from back then tho.. things about myself and about people and stress and guns.   You don't always have to shoot and you don't need anything fancy.  You don't get scarred until you have time to get scarred.

As for your example of the 5 shot mouse gun...  what department issued 5 shot 38 holster guns?  you are most likely talking about a J frame smith hideout gun.   

Oh yeah..the guy that got shot in the head?   he carried a 3 inch scar going into his hairline till he died a couple of years ago.   We took him to the hospital and told the guy he got hit with some metal while we were cutting up a junk car with a torch..  I think the doc only pretended to buy it to get us out of there.   police came by the next day.   no big deal.. they asked some questions and went on to other things.

lazs

  This whole thing just took a strange turn...So our buddy Laz, the reformed criminal, almost was involved in a shooting, when he almost shot a guy, who almost killed another guy. Then they almost all got in trouble because they took him to the hospital, but then they lied and the doctor bought it..did I miss anything? Ohh man, that is classic. Laz, it is a good thing you kept that pen knife in your butt crack back then too huh? It probably got you out of more than a few "tight spots".

  If this story is real, please let me rephrase it without all the extra jazz; You were standing next to a guy who was grazed by a bullet when a gun went off handled by a guy who you knew was not a threat before hand. The flash blinded you, the sound stunned your eardrums. You may have grabbed your gun, but I have a feeling you were most likely grabbing your nuts to make sure they were both present and accounted for.

 The fact you didn't shoot a guy who had an AD and accentually grazed another one of your friends tells me dick about how you would handle yourself when presented with a real threat...That is the critical difference between your hard core biker story and an actual shooting where one person is trying to kill another. I have been around more than a few ADs in my life time and guess what..I didn't react nether. That is why they are called Accidental Discharges and not; "Assault's on everyone around that requires everyone around to react as as if it was a real shooting", it doesn't quite roll off the tongue as well as AD does. However, if you have anymore stories about when you used to ride with the Hells Angels, I am all ears. I need a good laugh again.

[lazs2]

well..  seemed real enough to me.   I would ask you about your experience BBBB.   The guy who was shot was the pres of the banshees.   a known sucker puncher and he was mad.   He grabbed a 30-30..  He told me latter that he was just gonna hit the guy with it.   I see no reason to not believe him..  known him most of my life.   the guy with the 38 was his intended victim and was sitting on the edge of the bed.. the guy with the 38 shot.  I didn't even see him pull out the gun.. I was standing next to the guy who got shot.   It looked like the damn thing went off in my face.

I am almost certain it was not accidental except for maybe it went off before he wanted it to.  I just moved to the side and drew. The last guy made a half hearted attempt to get out his model 39 or 59 or whatever it was.

I coulda shot him and we coulda called the cops and I would have got off from the whole thing.   I didn't because their was no reason to.   I think that I made the right decision.  It would have changed my life in a not so good way.   The guy who got shot didn't even act like he was hurt till after it was all over and then he acted more mad than anything.   We came up with the whole cutting up a car in the middle of the night BS probly 30 minutes later.. after the other guys had left.  It was lame as could be but..

Who cares?  the hospital seemed willing to just get us out of there and the cops the next day didn't buy it at all but so what? 

I don't care what it proves to you.   The whole thing took one hell of a lot less time to happen than to explain it.   My version is a lot less embelished than some of the versions I have heard of the same story tho later... the one girl in the room screamed and fell on the floor and she tells the story like it was the shootout at the OK corral.   The guy who got shot makes it sound like he had to stop me from killing everyone.    One of the guys in the other room tells the story like he was in the room with us.   All I got out of the whole thing was that I had a gun pointed at someone who I coulda shot and got away with it.   I didn't and I am glad.

It wasn't a gunfight maybe but it was a tense moment that could have been a lot worse.  It felt like a damn gunfight at the time tho.   The word accident never came up.   

lazs

[Rich46yo]

Dago I never said an upgrade to high cap autos was a "bad thing" and I never advocated wheelguns over autos either.

I just said the argument you "need more bullets" is over-rated and is far lower on the priority list them most people think.

For every "5 shot snubbie" disaster story you can come up with I bet I can cook up 5 "jammed autos" stories. And either way I'd still say the real key to survival is more of what you have between your ears then what kinda gun you have on your side.

We had a girl empty 14 shots at an assailant from a car length away and the only thing she hit was the eye of some poor schmuck driving a block away from the scene. The BG just beat her up ,luckily, when she "ran out of bullets" and she ended up surviving tho the lawsuit is pending.

If Im an advocate of anything its to always carry two guns. Ive never once only carried one gun while OD and dont very often only carry one while off duty.

If you want to be "well armed" in today's world you should have a long gun on you. If these big city Dept.s were truly concerned about us then a long gun would be in every squad car. Unfortunately the stupid citizenry would have fits and that makes these Mutt Politicians go weak in the bowels.

[Jackal1]

Who cares?  the hospital seemed willing to just get us out of there and the cops the next day didn't buy it at all but so what? 

In a lot of situations back in the day a gun shot was not reported by a lot of doctors . It certainly didn`t hurt matters any if you knew the doc also.

[Jackal1]

A quicky cut `n paste
----------------------------------------------------------------

Judge blocks Philadelphia ban on assault weapons
Tue Jun 3, 2008 7:55pm EDT
 


PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A Philadelphia judge struck down city ordinances banning assault weapons and limiting handgun purchases on Tuesday, in a blow to the city's attempts to make gun laws separately from the state.

Pennsylvania state lawmakers, influenced by a strong rural gun lobby, have repeatedly rejected gun-control proposals from Philadelphia, one of the most violent cities in the United States.

Judge Jane Cutler Greenspan of the Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas said in a brief ruling that the city should be permanently prevented from enforcing the ordinances passed unanimously by the city council in April.

The ruling made permanent a temporary injunction and came in response to a lawsuit filed by the National Rifle Association, which argued that only the state legislature has a right to set gun laws.

NRA attorney C. Scott Shields called the decision a "huge victory" for gun-rights advocates. "The assault weapons ban and one-gun-a-month were the meat and potatoes of these ordinances," he said.

The city is expected to appeal the decision.

Judge Greenspan denied a challenge by the NRA to three other ordinances. Those allow judges to remove guns from people declared to be a risk to themselves or others; prevent people under protection-from-abuse orders from owning guns, and require gun owners to report the loss or theft of a gun to police within 24 hours.

[lazs2]

rich..  I think you have said it about how it is.   A good person with a lot of ammo in a mag is probly better off than a good person with less ammo but.. for the most part..  none of us really need all that ammo.   It matters not if you use 4 shots from an auto or a revolver to stop a fight and it matters not if you miss 14 times with a semi auto or miss 6 times with a revolver.

Semi autos are a lot better than they ever were.. the ammo is better.. jams are not near as frequent.  Semi autos are more accurate than they used to be.. they are better guns than they used to be.   Revolvers are better too tho and what they did back then.. they can still do today only better.   They are lighter and more powerful with an even wider choice of ammo. 

lazs

[lazs2]

jackal.. that is great news except the last part..   If I read it right, they are saying if you are in danger you can't own a gun?   what does "under protection" mean"   restraining order?    the last, the part about reporting stolen guns... It is a back door way to make you lose your rights.    How do you even know if a gun has been stolen within 24 hours in some cases?   Do you go through your guns every 24 hours and take inventory?   what if you come home from vacation to find your safe broken into?

Oh.. on the hospital thing..  someone at the little hospital must have called the cops at some point cause the sheriffs were there the next day (bout 5 hours later).

lazs

[Jackal1]

jackal.. that is great news except the last part..   If I read it right, they are saying if you are in danger you can't own a gun?   what does "under protection" mean"   restraining order?   

That`s about the same way I read it. I`d like to know more about their definitions on this just out of curousity.

the last, the part about reporting stolen guns... It is a back door way to make you lose your rights.    How do you even know if a gun has been stolen within 24 hours in some cases?   Do you go through your guns every 24 hours and take inventory?   what if you come home from vacation to find your safe broken into?

Yeah.....that is just lame in my book.

The part that really gets me is they claim Philly is one of the most violent cities in the U.S...........so some are trying to take the tools of protection away from the citizens. Like burning down the barn to get rid of the rats.

[BBBB]

That`s about the same way I read it. I`d like to know more about their definitions on this just out of curousity.

Yeah.....that is just lame in my book.

The part that really gets me is they claim Philly is one of the most violent cities in the U.S...........so some are trying to take the tools of protection away from the citizens. Like burning down the barn to get rid of the rats.

 That is pretty much the same stupid argument anti-gun groups have been shouting for years. If there isn't any guns then their wouldn't be any crime.. doesn't make much sense to me, but that is their way of thinking.

[Toad]

That is pretty much the same stupid argument anti-gun groups have been shouting for years. If there isn't any guns then their wouldn't be any crime.. doesn't make much sense to me, but that is their way of thinking.

Well, sure! I mean, when we made booze illegal during prohibition, all drinking suddenly and permanently stopped.

Besides, they have gun free/ crime free England as a perfect example of how right they are. 

[SteveBailey]

There are a lot of black people in Philly.