Med league resignation

[BUG_EAF322]

15K altitude limit  

that's really....

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
that's really....

yes, bug, finish that phrase...

That's really REALISTIC!

[bloom25]

Although I can understand the frustrations of the fights being high, in no way is an alt cap "realistic."  How is an alt cap any different than saying "The p51 is too fast for my 190, therefore there will be a speed limit of 350 mph?"  During the 3 sessions I've flown in we were jumped by high 109s on all 3 occasions.  The last time I flew Zigrat announced a cap of 15k.  CaveJ, myself and many others repeated this on the country channel.  (Have it all on film.)  Not 5 minutes later our spit squadron was jumped by c205s that were at least 25k.  Cave announced on open channel that the LW had broken the alt cap rule, then Zig said there was no alt cap!  He then went on to explain that there was supposedly some "strange wind layer" at 15k that would stall your plane if you tried to climb through it.

Historically many allied planes enjoyed advantages over the axis planes at high altitudes.  (P47 vs 190, p51 vs 109, p38, etc)  Perhaps the allied should say that the spit9 is slower than the 109s at 15k, therefore all 109s must never exceed 330mph.  My point is no matter what you do, there will always be arguments and counterpoints.  An alt cap is probably the most idiotic idea I've ever heard of.  How is it realistic?!?  Did Dowding tell his spit pilots during the BOB, "We have a treaty with the Germans, no planes shall fly above 15k ft?"  I doubt it.

LW pilots, I can understand your frustrations here, but this was a historical advantage for the allied planes.  You have the advantage of speed, climb, and acceleration with the 109s.  The A series 190s did have poor performance above 20k, this was a historical weakpoint of the design.  Trying to impose an alt cap because your plane isn't at an advantage is just silly.  The main limitation here is the fact that there are no clouds.  If we had clouds the fighters would be forced to fly under them to spot the bombers heading in under the clouds.


I will be unable to fly tonight.  I have things I must get done tonight that cannot wait.  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Vermillion]

Ok Bloom, then explain to me how You would get the fights down to historic levels in an event?

Because historically, both BOB and the north African campaign were fought at what you would consider "low altitude".

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[bloom25]

Verm, define "historic levels" for me please?  This would be totally dependant on the area you were flying, whether bombers were present, the performance characteristics of your airplane, expected altitude of the enemy aircraft, weather conditions (ie, wind, cloud, fog, etc).

Since there is no cloud layer, there really is no limit to visibility.  This means that the fighter who is/can fly the highest has an advantage.  If there was a cloud layer the fighters would have to fly below them to spot approaching bombers and their fighter escort.

I also don't think you can generalize all combat in the BOB and the Med as "low altitude."  There would have been fights occuring at all levels.  The book "Fighter" by Len Deighton is a good resource to prove this point.  Often the LW bombers would sneak in at low level while the LW fighters flew in excess of 20k ft.  Due to weather conditions the bombers would usually get through, often without being spotted.  If bombers tried this tactic in AH they would be slaughtered, because due to icons and clear skies (massive dots) they are easily spotted from 15k above them.

The way to reduce the height of the fights and simulate more "realistic" altitudes is quite simple actually.  All you have to do is limit visibility.  Here's my suggestions:  A. Reduced icon range. (We already have this, but I'd say reduce it even farther to about 2k.) B.  Remove those giant black dots that appear at 20k distances.  Make them appear at about 4k.  C.  NO inflight radar.  D.  Increased number of clouds at about 20k height.  E.  (Not yet implemented) Contrails for high flying aircraft.  F. Sun glare

The important thing here is to get rid of those massive dots.  This would make fighters at 25k + unable to see low flying bombers.  The clouds would limit high altitude bombing, forcing escorts lower.

IMO the concept of an "alt cap" is about as far from realism as you can get.  (What's the difference between this and a speed limit???   )  In addtion an "alt cap" is far more damaging to the allied planes as a whole vs the axis planes.  Maybe the allieds should ask for a speed limit?  



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Furious]

Bloom25,

First let me state that I am not trying to be antagonistic and secondly let me say that I am not an expert, but...

the conditions in the Mediterranean theater can not be accurately represented in this "Sim" without some sort of imposed caps.  For example, the modifications required for tropical operations that prevented damage caused by heat, sand, etc. had to have adverse effects on the aircraft's performance in climb, in speed and in ideal altitude.

Should the aircraft participating in this scenarios retain their MA characteristics?

Furious

[This message has been edited by Furious (edited 11-01-2000).]

[gatt]

IMHO the answer is: balance. If you cant give both the sides the chance to win ... well, then someone will just quit. This is a game. No one pays only to be on the receiving side. Same thing in Main Arena, some a/c make the arena simply unbalanced, but thats another story.

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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights
Macchi C.202's sting (1,9MByte film)

[busc]

Hello, I actually agree with Vermillion about the necessity to have lower fight when simulating N-Arica and Mediterranean or Bob Theaters...

But I am not sure if an imposed alt limit would be the correct choice..My opion is still that the use of wind to limit the ability of all the planes not to fly but at least to fight  at altitudes from  27000 to 32000 feets  is the best choice for everyone..

Lowering the bomber means often lowering the fights..

If a bomber needs to drop from lower altitudes  (from 15 to 20k) in order to obtain better chances of hitting his target, the escort needs to fly lower too.
No one can effectively protect a bomber flying 10k over him..the buff-hunters would just appear lower, at high speed, and disapear, diving away at warp speed, immediatly after crippling a dozen of bombers in 1 or 2 quick passes...Maybe to appear  again after  some minutes, ready to repeat the show if the escorts are still 10k far away from the bombers.

And since wind does not affect bomb drops in AH for now the only soulution to simulate the inaccuracy of the bombers at high alts (high altitude level bombers accuracy as it is now is completely unrealistic).

My idea is:


20 to 27 k ----> 12 kts crosswind w/no raise

27 to 23 k -------> 25 kts crosswind w/no raise

In ww2 was difficult to judge w/direction n speed as it was changing during the flight ... To simulate this CM could sligtly change wind direction during the scenario  (first 10 mins of scen. : wind from South  same w/speed as at startin time..2nd 10 mins 170° - 5 kts speed ..3rd 10 mins 150° + 2 kts...4th 10 mins 140° + 4 kts )  
                                    BuSc

[BUG_EAF322]

Quote by RAM :

"That's really REALISTIC!"

yeah even in the "spirit off st. louis"
u would have a good SA, u only have too look for level cons  

[BUG_EAF322]

It's gonna be a heck off a 2D scenario

 

[-ammo-]

question--

in battle will we be allowed to climb through the alt cap? I'm not talking about  cruising level at 20K, I mean at a merge or say-- a 109 or spitfire using his superior climb rate to avoid another con?

ammo

[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Vermillion]

banana is the CM so he will be judging violations of the alt cap, so you may wish to get a definitive answer from him.

But here is how I view it.

If your at 15k and use a vertical manuever it better have a continuation at the end that takes you back down below 15k.

So I guess my view is that no, you couldn't use some kind of spiral climb or sustained climb up past the 15k limit to reverse onto a chasing enemy.

A half cuban eight, would IMO be legal, but if at any time you go wings level above 15k, your in violation of the rule.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Vermillion]

Bloom, while I agree that  visibility often limits actual operating altitudes, its difficult to do in scenarios.

I would love to put a thick cloud cover at different altitudes to simulate such a problem and provide a more realistic reason to fly lower. But the guys with low end systems are then effectively excluded from the events.

Also according to Pyro at this time, we can't go below a 3k icon range, for technical reasons I can't go into here.

Also with a plan like yours you get into the old HA no icon vs we can't see with current graphics type of arguement. Without the crutches you mentioned (icons and black dots) the participants are like an army of blind men stumbling around hoping to randomly bump into the enemy. We just don't have the visual clues the real pilots had to spot and ID the enemy.

Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas, and wish we could do them. But at this time, its almost impossible implement them.

Personally, I don't like absolute alt cap limits myself. But I learned long ago, that if you don't use them, every event turns into a 30k stratosphere spaceship match, which quickly get very very boring. Especially if your trying to recreate a battle or theater of operation that historically had combat operations at much lower altitudes.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[bloom25]

I see your point Verm, however in the last frame I was in our squad was attacked by a numerically superior force at least 5k above us.  I have it on film, Zigrat said an alt cap of 15k was in effect, Wolf then repeated this (so did CaveJ and myself) to all the allied COs.  Just a few minutes later our squad was attacked from far above us when we were at 15k.  Cave can be seen on the open channel saying "Axis broke the alt cap rule."  After that, well lets just say the allied channels weren't too friendly for the next couple minutes.

An alt cap will never work perfectly because someone will always bend the rules.  The only "alt cap" that could work is a very strong wind layer at 15k that stalls out any planes that try to go above it.

My $.02.

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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Vermillion]

Thats why you have a CM Bloom, and I agree some idiot is always trying to push the limits of the rules.

I know that as a CM in past events with alt limit rules, if I saw a film that showed one flight from team B at 15k, and one flight from team A at 20k, and a fight insues that wipes out team B. A penalty would definitely be in order.

In fact one way I have seen it handled is that Team A would not get the points from that flight, or any points scored subsequently by that flight. Plus Team B would get credit for "destroying" that Team A's flight, as if they had died just before they engaged the enemy.

Penalties are usually a very contentious subject as well, but I know that as a CO if my team obviously violated the rule, I would take the penalty and shut up. Peer pressure from their own team will weigh heavily on "rule benders" if you start to hand them out.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure