Author Topic: Pearl Harbor Sceanrio ? (Read 1525 times)

jordi · « **on:** October 29, 2001, 08:31:00 AM »

Is it at all possible ? Not even sure if AH has the plane set or map for it - but it is a good idea to think about.

Mike "Jordi" Bowman - DAMNED

Seeker · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »

Jordi, you'll have to break out of the AW mind mould - we have a terrain editor! You make your own map, or bribe some one to do it for you. Take a look in the H2H scene, there's a wealth of active map makers. Take a look at the "arena settings" area of the clipboard, and play with it off line or in H2H to get a feel for what's available for a CM - much, much more than you or I are used to.

Wind layers, clouds, night fall, cloud over target, may be no clipboard map so for the first time you'll have to navigate properly by compass bearing and elapsed time etc.

There's a wealth of opertunity that we AW'ers have only dreamt of for the last three years. Check it out, get a feel for it.

hblair · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2001, 11:28:00 AM »

I never have been a fan of a Pearl Harbor Scenario. It was a one-sided sneak attack. To make it anything else wouldn't be a scenario, but a Fantasy.

..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.

jordi · « **Reply #3 on:** October 29, 2001, 12:59:00 PM »

"..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.

--------------------

hblair
The ASSASSINS
hblair's Realplayer Movies

"Eat them taters" -hblair "

It was more of a WHAT IF than a true Historical recreation. If it had been a true recreation it would go over as well as if we had the Marianis Turkey Shoot !

And the 200+ a night participants enjoyed that scenario itself - enough so that we were able to re-run again with the same high numbers the following year.

All who were involved spent a lot of time and effort to make it work and to make it enoyable to those in it and to RESPECT those that gave the ultimate sacrifice to thier countries on that day.

I do not belive I heard anyone involved from top to bottom ever call it Tacky.

Your milage my vary.

Mike "Jordi" Bowman

PS - Seeker - I just wanted to throw out the idea to see if anyone had thought of it or tried it yet. I do not know enough about AH or how to build maps and all that is required to even think I could pull it off. Maybe someone else more qualified could though.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #4 on:** October 29, 2001, 01:18:00 PM »

Jordi,

To answer your question about plane set .. no right now AH really doesn't have the plane set for it. There is no P40 of F4F on the U.S. side. And on the Japanese side there are no Vals and Kates .. so I think it would be really hard to try to recreate a "what if" Pearl Harbor scenario.

As for whether its a tacky or not .. I don't believe it is. It was a "what if" scenario that tried to give both sides a little bit of the feel of that historical event while giving both sides a chance at success.

The first time it ran we saw exactly what could have happened if the Japaneses had screwed up and somebody recognized their incoming attack force. The U.S. did spot then (due to a rogue pilot getting spotted by a U.S. patrol plane) and the whole U.S. aiforce had time to get airborne instead of being shredded on the ground.

Basically every scenario run is a what if scenario and all could be tacky if handle incorrectly. The future TOD is a prime example .. Clearing the Phillipines. During its time period the Japanese should have very few NIK2s, Ki-61s and all of their planes should be not in top condition, supplies are short, and their pilots are not first class (most first class pilots were dead). This is what it was historically at that time .. but for game play and what if the scenario has to be balanced out so that Japanese have a chance otherwise nobody would want to do it.

If you find it tacky thats fine and personal opinion. If you create a what if that is gives a chance to both sides and have no problem in playing with a what if .. again that is a personal opinion and decision. That is just my two cents and now I will turn over the soap box to somebody else.

hblair · « **Reply #5 on:** October 29, 2001, 11:59:00 PM »

My first reply was alil abrupt, sorry. I just don't see how a Pearl Harbor Scenario could be like, say, Midway, where both sides were set up for battle, and it could have easily gone either way. Pearl Harbor could not have gone either way. The US had no warning. They didn't know there were Japanese Carriers anywhere near. How could you make this winnable for the US side without changing a big chunk of history and warning them (let squads of P40's get airborne before the japanese planes got there). When you do that, it's just fantasy from there on out.

I remember a year or two ago reading AGW sometime in early December, a few threads with facts about Pearl Harbor Day, people giving veterans accounts of the day, etc. Very Somber.
And another thread an Air Warrior guy started trying to drum up pilots for their "encore" run of the "Pearl Harbor" scenario. Rubbed me the wrong way, as well as some other people there. In my opinion Pearl Harbor is just something that you shouldn't make an airplane game out of. The US wasn't at war, defenseless. To try to change it so we "could fight back" is, hmm, dunno, just doesn't seem right to me. Then again, it could just be me...

hblair · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2001, 12:08:00 AM »

You're right about the Phillipines Ghstdncr. They are never going to be very accurate historically as far as wear and tear, etc.

Dunno, just seems to me that Pearl Harbor wasn't really a "battle" per say, but almost like a terrorist attack. Like I said, I might be the only one who feels this way.

steely07 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2001, 12:44:00 AM »

There is already a pearl map,i have it if you would like to look,All credit to whoever made it btw

Seeker · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2001, 02:21:00 AM »

Hblair,

You're quite right with your objections to the "surprise attack"; but wouldn't that also be applicable to early war Blitzkrieg scenarios?

As I see it, the challenge for the CM is to come up with a "plot" that gives both sides a fighting chance. The challenge for the players is to see wether through better command or flying they can "beat" history.

After all, we all know Goering's errors in the BoB, if you concentrate on airbases the RAF should have no chance. Yet, many sucsessful scenarios have been run on the BoB in just about every flight sim ever published.

The bottom line is - will you have fun?

Nifty · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2001, 09:05:00 AM »

It's just you and a few other people, hblair. Sorry if something like that would rub you the wrong way as you said, but if that's the case... simple solution is you just don't play the scenario if it ever comes to fruition.

A lot of people would probably be interested in a "what if" scenario for PH, and the idea shouldn't be stomped out if a few people feel like it's a bad idea (for whatever reason.) There's too much of that tip-toeing around going on in the real world right now, we don't need it to be applied to a game we have fun in.

Rocket · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:18:00 AM »

I think the what if side of Pearl would be fun to do. We know how it turned out already. For a scenerio how aboutletting the radar controller actually get the warning msg to the base and fighter cover scramble to intercept the bombers. Let's see how the thing would play out that way.

I like the fact that with scenerios we can replay any day in WWII (if we have a planeset) and change the ending of the day. It doesn't matter which side wins now as long as the majority have fun!

As for Pearl it will take some time and a few more releases I believe until we see a planeset that is doable.

S!
Rocket

ghostdancer · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »

Hblair,

Agreed there is just some things that never can be really factored in and some we don't want to. Such as restricting one side to older planes to such a degree they don't have a chance against the newer models.

As for Pearl Harbor .. yes, I can see how you would think it could be tacky. If it was setup under the exact same historical conditions I would agree that it would not only be tacky but not very fun (nobody wants to be massacred).

However, there were so many mistakes made, such as the Radar operators contact being mistaken for the B17s, that if just a couple of them did not happen the Japanese could have found it very different at Pearl Harbor than what happened historically.

Even with 20 minutes of warning all the ships could have been ready and armed. The AAA thrown up the USN during the first wave attack was very ineffective and organized. The AAA during the second wave attack was very fierce and organized.

Also the few planes that did get up off the ground did give a good showing for themselves. They were not just simply swepted out of the air. If there was more of a warning more planes could have gotten up from the U.S. bases and I think the Japanese would not have had such an easy time of it. Actually that was there biggest fear .. being detected and the U.S. getting its forces into the air.

Remember there was a radar contact that was ignored by orders of an officer and there also was a midget sub that tried to enter the harbor and was attacked by a U.S. destroyer (favorite site for some history is http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor). So many little things happened that if somebody just put two and two together or was more suspicous we could have had just a little more time to get our planes into the air and get the ships ready. I have read accounts that simple said that people thought we were going to go to war with the Japanese but they never expected an attack at Hawaii.

A Pearl Harbor "what if" scenario could be constructed around these things and was in AW. Basically if a patrol plane had spotted the enemy, if the U.S. forces when the sub was reported had been put on alert for possible enemy action, etc.

You might still disagree and find it tacky but I think a "what if" scenario of what if the U.S. forces had an extra 15 minutes to get airborne and prepared would be interesting.

--

Then again as Rocket says until we get more of the historical planes (P40 - probably would never get P36, F4F, and the Vals and Kates) this is really an academic discussion.

Drano · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hblair:
I never have been a fan of a Pearl Harbor Scenario. It was a one-sided sneak attack. To make it anything else wouldn't be a scenario, but a Fantasy.

..and Yeah, I know Air warrior has had a Pearl Harbor scenario, which, in my opinion is tacky.

It was--as Jordi says--a "What if" kinda thing. Lot of fun nevertheless. We flew 6 frames total flying 3 for the allies and 3 for the japanese sides. Sure enough we took some serious lumps as the allies but I came out unscathed in my P-40 flying with Lugs' group. When we switched up we flew Kates O' Doom and laid waste to the fleet on Ford Island in the face of innumerable flaks! One frame we split our forces and took a round about loop north of the island looking for the Lexington. Our torps sent the Lady Lex and her pathetic escorts to the bottom.(We raked in some serious points for that one hehe) Authentic? Accurate? For the most part absolutely not. Fun? Youbetcha! My time flyin in any of the AW scenarios was always among my best memories of that game. I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing in here--taking it to another level! <S>

Drano

P.S. In every scenario I was a part of the great rally cry was always "KILL WESTY!" I'm sure you guys could all get on board something like that!

ghostdancer · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2001, 11:33:00 AM »

KILL WESTY!

Drano · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2001, 03:27:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GhstDncr:
KILL WESTY!

Now THAT didn't take long!

Drano