Author Topic: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example  (Read 2543 times)

Offline Bones

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 11:07:19 AM »
The X-Prize folks have it listed in the motorcycle category.

It does not meet the minimum requirements for the X-Prize automobile category, as they require 4 useable seats in the car.

It could make an entry into the experimental category, but those are assured not to win the prize.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 11:10:09 AM by Bones »

Offline VonMessa

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 11:20:10 AM »
Appealing to the entrepreneurial and sense of greed are the perfect motivators.

This is the principal that Big Oil works upon.

Enter young, genius, college student with an idea and working prototype of a revolutionary new way to improve fuel efficiency by 75%.

He /she is 21, with lots of student loans and credit card debt.

Along comes Big Oil with a couple of million to buy the rights to this great invention.

Our broke, college student  holds debt in one hand, and a check with 6+ figures in the other.  At 22 (+ or -) years old the decision does not take long to make.  Money now or hang on to the idea, raise capitol (more debt), market it, find a manufacturer, etc?

I know it's a very generic scenario, but that's pretty much how it plays out, for the most part.

Sad but true.
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Offline Toad

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 11:22:45 AM »
Apparently that scenario didn't play out for Bones.

Would be tough to get it to play out for the X-prize winner too, wouldn't it? I mean the world will know who won and there will be demand for the car. If Exxon buys it and it disappears.... riots?  :)
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 11:25:37 AM »
The X-Prize folks have it listed in the motorcycle category.
It does not meet the minimum requirements for the X-Prize automobile category, as they require 4 useable seats in the car.

It could make an entry into the experimental category, but those are assured not to win the prize.


Or they could make a 4 seater?


FAQ:
"Are there plans for a 4-seat model of any kind in the foreseeable future at even lower MPG ratings?"

"Once Aptera has finalized the initial production version of the typ-1 we will continue to revolutionize the transportation industry in other areas."

"Since the Aptera is classified as a motorcycle, do you have to wear a helmet or get an endorsement on my license?"

"You are not required to wear a helmet to drive the Aptera, nor is an endorsement on your drivers license required.  Anything in the state of CA with three wheels does not require a motorcycle license and enclosed vehicles with three wheels do not require the use of a helmet.  All this and you also get to drive in the HOV lanes!"




I was wrong,

I wonder how far they will go with this "enclosed motorcycle" catagory. 4 person? Motorcycle's that have passenger car crash testing? Motorcycle with a role cage?



« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 11:30:29 AM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline VonMessa

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 11:40:05 AM »
Apparently that scenario didn't play out for Bones.

Would be tough to get it to play out for the X-prize winner too, wouldn't it? I mean the world will know who won and there will be demand for the car. If Exxon buys it and it disappears.... riots?  :)

Some would squawk, yes.  But, for the most part, the public at large will piss and moan about the price of fuel while at the same time continuing to pay the prices as they rise. 

Ideas like these may begin to take hold on the public eventually.  The whole "green" concept is now becoming more and more in vogue.  An idea that at one time was for those "damn, tree-hugging hippies", has now finally worked its way into mainstream society.

With the explosion of "freedom" of information in the past decade, it IS going to become harder to just snap-up patents and ideas at-will, but as long as the bottom line is threatened, they will always try.
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Offline 68Wooley

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2008, 02:07:35 PM »
The future is here already - if you live in the right part of the world...

http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-costs.aspx?RT=622&ED=44339&U=0

Most Americans will still scoff at such cars, but the reality is that within a generation, they are going to be the norm over here. Gas prices in the US are only three or four years behind where they are in Europe.

Offline Fulmar

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2008, 02:12:49 PM »
This car is already excepting orders for local folks. For short trips under 100 miles it gets around 300 miles to the gallon. On long trips it lowers to about 120 mpg. Made in Carlsbad CA.

Just hand the xprize over. :)

http://www.aptera.com/details.php
Can we put chains on those tires?
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Offline lazs2

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2008, 02:21:29 PM »
I see no downside... In fact..

I am not even against the government giving away 1 billion of our money as a prize to build a car that gets 100 mpg and meets some other specs including a reasonable price and performance goal.

I am not against the government giving a billion dollar prize for the first solar panel that is say 75% efficient and cost less.

lazs

Offline Bones

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2008, 02:51:28 PM »
There is a reason that Fiat 1.3TD is not available here.  The same reason the Mini diesel is not available here.

The engines and injection systems need to be re-worked to use the diesel we have available.  They would lose about 15% of their power and more in fuel efficiency.

The government is driven by big oil.  They have no vested interest, other than to lip service the people of our country, to see this go forward.  If they had an interest, the American automobile engine would have changed a long, long time ago.  Big oil has no desire to see that happen, so it will not happen.

Offline Kaw1000

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2008, 02:57:57 PM »
Ok kids...here's how it works...just like Health Insurance.....we will produce fuel efficient cars and the price of
gas will stay the same or go higher.....I don't know how many times I've heard if everyone stops smoking our insurance rates will go down.
 Many people have quit smoking and are eating right...has our health Insurance gone down ???Noooooo
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Offline Fulmar

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2008, 03:01:24 PM »
Many people have quit smoking and are eating right...has our health Insurance gone down ???Noooooo
Smoking is down.  I haven't seen any adult obesity stats for the last couple years, I know child obesity figures say it has plateaued.  But smoking and fatties does equal 100% of all insurance claims.
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2008, 03:32:03 PM »
Automotive X Prize

"VEHICLE CLASSES AND DESIGN REQUIREMENTS
In order to encourage a wide range of realistic, production-capable vehicles and products, the AXP purse will be awarded in two vehicle classes: Mainstream and Alternative.

The Mainstream Class has minimum design requirements based on the characteristics and combined city and highway driving profile typical of today's popular, mixed-use vehicles.

The Alternative Class is intended to encourage wider-ranging innovations in vehicle design, as well as alternative but realistic visions of how future vehicles will be used for personal and family transportation.

Accordingly, the Alternative Class has fewer design constraints.
Vehicles that are designed to achieve AXP goals by modifying an existing popular vehicle may be entered in either class, provided that all AXP requirements are met.

The AXP will offer two vehicle classes: Mainstream and Alternative. The classes have the same requirements for fuel economy and emissions, but different design constraints.

Mainstream class – 4+ passenger vehicles with 4+ wheels that meet conventional expectations for size and capability

Alternative class – An outlet for innovative ideas that push forward today's conventions about automotive transportation (2+ passengers, no requirement on number of wheels)

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL VEHICLES
All vehicles or products must be designed to achieve AXP energy and emissions requirements, i.e.:

Fuel economy: at least 100 MPGe

Total (wells-to-wheels) Greenhouse Gas (GHG) emissions expressed as equivalent grams of C02 per mile: no more than 200 g/mi

Criteria emissions: no worse than Tier II, bin 5

GHG emissions from vehicle production: no worse than typical vehicles in production today

All vehicles will be required to have a minimum set of features. Those features include but may not be limited to:

• Enclosed cabin (or convertible), with windshield and windows

• Windshield wipers and washers

• Seat belts and restraints

• Rear and side view mirrors

• Feedback mechanisms to provide essential data to the driver (speed, fuel remaining, range, etc.)

• Lamps, lighting, horn, indicators, brake lights and reflective devices consistent with safety regulations

Furthermore, the following features are required to accommodate AXP requirements for vehicle testing and monitoring:

Sufficient ground clearance, cooling and attachment points to facilitate dynamometer testing

Marmon flange for connection to emissions sampling equipment

A standard, AXP-supplied on-board data acquisition and telemetry package that captures and transmits at a minimum: fuel-flow (for liquid and gaseous fuels), amp-hours (for electrical fuels), GPS data (for location and speed


MAINSTREAM CLASS REQUIREMENTS

Capacity: 4 or more passengers (95th percentile adult male) and 10 cubic feet of useful cargo space

Wheels: 4 or more wheels

Performance: 0-60 mph acceleration in less than 12 seconds, minimum top speed 100 mph, minimum range 200 miles, 60 - 0 MPH braking in no more than 170 feet, lateral acceleration (300-ft-dia skidpad) 0.70 g, 600 ft slalom (Motor Trend) speed 55 MPH, gradeability 55 MPH on a 7.5% grade, noise levels within drive-by standards (74 decibels max)

Features: Heater, air-conditioner, audio system, real-time eco-feedback display5

ALTERNATIVE CLASS REQUIREMENTS

Seating Capacity: 2 or more passengers  seated side-by-side (95th percentile adult male) and 5 cubic feet of useful cargo space

Wheels: No minimum requirement

Performance: 0-60 mph acceleration in less than 12 seconds, minimum top speed 80 mph, minimum range 100 miles, 60 - 0 MPH braking in no more than 170 feet, lateral acceleration (300-ft-dia skidpad) 0.70 g, 600 ft slalom (Motor Trend) speed 55 MPH, gradeability 45 MPH on a 7.5% grade, noise levels within drive-by standards (74 decibels max)

Features: Real-time eco-feedback display

The AXP reserves the right to modify and expand these requirements while preserving their basic intent.

Tandem and single seating. Issue: Given that this is the Alternative class, it should permit tandem seating and also single-seat vehicles. Probable Change. Our original concern was that tandem- and single-seat vehicles would have too much of an advantage, but we agree that they should be permitted. Thus, the probable change is to relax constraint on number of seats to one seat and not to constrain the seating arrangement. All vehicles must have automatic, dynamic and static stability (i.e., so that balance while moving or stopped/parked does not depend on the driver). However, we would have two Divisions of the Alternative class – side-by-side seating vs. everything else (tandem, single). There would be a winner in each Division with the Alternative class purse split between the Divisions in proportion to the number of vehicles in each Division (still under consideration)."

 :aok

« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 04:00:58 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Bones

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2008, 03:35:47 PM »
I called it the experimental class, when in fact is the alternative class.

That class has zero chance of winning the X-Prize, in my opinion.  They are looking for mainstream efforts.

I am not saying the Aptera is not a neat idea.  I just think it can be easily beaten in this competition.

Offline Megalodon

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2008, 03:45:55 PM »
I called it the experimental class, when in fact is the alternative class.

That class has zero chance of winning the X-Prize, in my opinion.  They are looking for mainstream efforts.

I am not saying the Aptera is not a neat idea.  I just think it can be easily beaten in this competition.

you know what they say about opinion's  :lol

Please show me your entry that meets ALL the requirements as of right now...TODAY!
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Megalodon

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Re: How to get things done: Car MPG as an example
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2008, 03:56:39 PM »
Can we put chains on those tires?
(Image removed from quote.)


 :lol

 I dunno maybe snow tires  :) They did mention in the FAQ they would be testing in the snow in the future.
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520