Author Topic: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are  (Read 8170 times)

Offline Motherland

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #135 on: June 09, 2008, 01:04:29 PM »
I am sure when you come up against someone who you know you can beat and they wont let you its frustrating. My answer to that is GOOOD :rock :lol
No. I love that. I seek out SAPP members and others that I know are very good and can probably beat me. I love that. When someone beats me, I seek them out for another go. And again, and again, and again. It's more fun than cherry picking and it makes me better.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #136 on: June 09, 2008, 01:07:08 PM »
mtnman

The bit the trainers miss in my opinion is its not just monkey see monkey do. You have to practice and become familiar. You build in Biological terms the regular neural pathways by repetition in different situations. The best way to learn is to add a new skill at intervals to your existing set and for this you need to practice. your algebra example is not relevant allot of ah is not intelectual it is physical skill. Best way to learn is to learn while enjoying yourself in the game then when you have practiced the new skills in combat in prolonged fights go back and learn more or you plateau. You got the bit about the level difference meaning neither learns any thing. For that I thank you and I think you explained it very well but the algebra bit is erroneous. You can write down an example in algebra and extrapolate in AH allot of it is learning to use the pencil.

Allot of people think because they know something they can teach it. First you need to know how you learned it and then you have to understand not everyone learns the same way.



Oh, trust me, I know (as do the other trainers) that it isn't anything like "monkey-see monkey-do".  I tell my "students" flat out that they won't get the concepts down overnight, and that it takes a LOT of practice to achieve the results they desire.  The "students" who have the most success come back again and again and again for more help.  They need to take the ideas with them and work on them, and then come back for evaluation, refinement, and some new ideas to work on.

Your idea that there's more physical skill than intellectual skill at work is only true if you're fighting buildings.  If you're fighting other players, you're just plain wrong.  I see an opportunity for you to expand yourself here...

 "Best way to learn is to learn while enjoying yourself in the game then when you have practiced the new skills in combat in prolonged fights go back and learn more or you plateau."  I disagree.  This is a good, easy, way to enjoy yourself in the game, but not the best or most efficient way to learn.  Students learn better in a more formal teacher /student environment.  I'm not saying they don't learn anything playing on the playground, mind you, I'm just saying they won't learn as much as they do in the classroom.

"You build in Biological terms the regular neural pathways by repetition in different situations."  I agree here.  It's just such a shame when bad habits are learned by repeating the wrong things.  It's easier to teach the right things initially than it is to correct bad habits that have already been learned.  How does a beginner know if he's learning the right things or not?  The best way to deal with a high, fast P51 with a skilled pilot in it for example?

MtnMan
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #137 on: June 09, 2008, 01:08:00 PM »
Yarbles, so let me get this straight.  You are proposing the same as Stephen Waldren then?  Only engage from a position of advantage and don't stick around for a fight if it doesn't work?

In the extreme end of this scenario, players will begin to climb higher and higher in the arenas.  No one will learn fighting skills, and the one with the fastest plane on the highest perch will be the ultimate winner.  Correct?

It just seems to me this would become a pretty boring game for everyone involved but I guess if that's your idea of fun then have at it.

./quote]

Good point but as as a realtive novice you have to have a strategy which gives you some control. If you are warned of an Ace eg thats wingzero you need to be cautious to stand a chance.  I find if a bounce people a couple of times ive got an idea of whether i can kill them by how quickly or not they are turning the tables. I will kling onto their six if I think I can and the most skilled I think are those who dont let me see how good they are until its too late.

Maybe some of our self appointed experts could learn something from that.
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #138 on: June 09, 2008, 01:11:03 PM »
Yarbles, so let me get this straight.  You are proposing the same as Stephen Waldren then?  Only engage from a position of advantage and don't stick around for a fight if it doesn't work?

In the extreme end of this scenario, players will begin to climb higher and higher in the arenas.  No one will learn fighting skills, and the one with the fastest plane on the highest perch will be the ultimate winner.  Correct?

It just seems to me this would become a pretty boring game for everyone involved but I guess if that's your idea of fun then have at it.

./quote]

Good point but as as a realtive novice you have to have a strategy which gives you some control. If you are warned of an Ace eg thats wingzero you need to be cautious to stand a chance.  I find if a bounce people a couple of times ive got an idea of whether i can kill them by how quickly or not they are turning the tables. I will kling onto their six if I think I can and the most skilled I think are those who dont let me see how good they are until its too late.

Maybe some of our self appointed experts could learn something from that.

Appologies for this
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #139 on: June 09, 2008, 01:17:21 PM »
Oh, trust me, I know (as do the other trainers) that it isn't anything like "monkey-see monkey-do".  I tell my "students" flat out that they won't get the concepts down overnight, and that it takes a LOT of practice to achieve the results they desire.  The "students" who have the most success come back again and again and again for more help.  They need to take the ideas with them and work on them, and then come back for evaluation, refinement, and some new ideas to work on.

Your idea that there's more physical skill than intellectual skill at work is only true if you're fighting buildings.  If you're fighting other players, you're just plain wrong.  I see an opportunity for you to expand yourself here...

 "Best way to learn is to learn while enjoying yourself in the game then when you have practiced the new skills in combat in prolonged fights go back and learn more or you plateau."  I disagree.  This is a good, easy, way to enjoy yourself in the game, but not the best or most efficient way to learn.  Students learn better in a more formal teacher /student environment.  I'm not saying they don't learn anything playing on the playground, mind you, I'm just saying they won't learn as much as they do in the classroom.

"You build in Biological terms the regular neural pathways by repetition in different situations."  I agree here.  It's just such a shame when bad habits are learned by repeating the wrong things.  It's easier to teach the right things initially than it is to correct bad habits that have already been learned.  How does a beginner know if he's learning the right things or not?  The best way to deal with a high, fast P51 with a skilled pilot in it for example?

MtnMan

I guess its a combination of Both intelectual and basic skills but without the skills you dont see far beyond the cockpit initially.

That 51 I would try to drag down low and slow I would let him up to 1k pretending I hadnt seen him. Then turn Like mad because I find it very hard to fly looking behind me. I.E I lack a basic skill with which to control the fight. I would like to go for the overshhot and reverse but in the turn I might loose vis. If I survived the pass and so did he I would be in a spit (usually) and I would climb like mad to try and equal the E.   
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 01:19:20 PM by Yarbles »
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Offline pluck

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2008, 02:03:49 PM »
I think everyone who takes the trouble to learn the basics once they have mastered them will want to learn more as otheriwse it becomes boring and meaningless. Also other than perhaps at the very start no one went into battle without combat skills. I detect a certain insecurity in so many players that seem to feel they are not able to use their skills as they are being picked off by inferiors using obvious though effective tactics. My view is maybe your just not as good as you think you are and you should stop complaining or find something else to do.  

BTW What is all this rushing to be a great cartoon mix it up hero. Judgeing by the people on here its just the road to bitter endless know it all criticism and self congratulation.   

guess that is just your perception.  I don't really care if I get picked. But to advocate that new players forget to learn what I would think to be even basic manuevers and concepts and just pick is doing a disservice to that player and to the general state of AH.  I would rather fight people who want to fight and at least have a sense about how to go about it, rather than running and just wiggling back and forth.  It doesn't matter so much who shoots down who, it's the act of getting to that point.  picking offers little in the way of excitement.  really, how excited can he be, I dove in, he didn't see me, he went down...rinse repeat. don't forget to add, he saw me, so I left.  It's hard to imagine all of AH just climbing to 20k in the fastest planes, hoping to pick the other guy on climbout, or happening to run across someone lower.  then just diving to deck back to base with tail between legs.

I would agree that at the beginning of ww2, ACM was still very young.  But, maybe I'm wrong, pilots where trained as concepts were available/if pilots left to train.  I would also imagine they spoke with other pilots about dog fighting.  at any rate it is pointless to even try to compare a war and tactics to a video game, and there is no shortage of resources to learn

In all this what, I think, is not getting through, is that some of us don't care at all about how good or not good we are.  We just want to have a good fight.  why you think this means we are trying to be hero's I can only speculate.  The more new people that come into this game, and learn how to put up a fight, the better for everyone.  To the community it means better fights, and to the individual it opens up an interesting part of the game.  If you have fun only b'n'z, running, etc.. then fine, but don't try to tell new players this is how you should play the game because it's easier than learning ACM.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 02:07:03 PM by pluck »
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #141 on: June 09, 2008, 02:19:28 PM »
In all this what, I think, is not getting through, is that some of us don't care at all about how good or not good we are.  We just want to have a good fight.  why you think this means we are trying to be hero's I can only speculate.  The more new people that come into this game, and learn how to put up a fight, the better for everyone.  To the community it means better fights, and to the individual it opens up an interesting part of the game.  If you have fun only b'n'z, running, etc.. then fine, but don't try to tell new players this is how you should play the game because it's easier than learning ACM.

What I find genuinely sad about this is that you have to speak as part of a group "we this and we that" and that at no point have i been trying to tell anyone what to do.

If you read earlier posts you will see that people are affronted by an alternative and obviously intermediate step to make the game more interesting at a certain level. Then we get macho assertions of how indivduals have clawed there way up against terrible odds to be the great pilots they are today. Then accusations about people with no skill deviously destroying the righteous in pursuit of the true game. Then how these individuals will pervert the new away from this righteous path of accomplished ACM.

Pompous Nonsense :D

Some guy comes on here and gives a few ideas and the response is awash with self righteous posturing by people who should surely know better.

In my humble ;) opinion 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 02:20:59 PM by Yarbles »
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #142 on: June 09, 2008, 02:37:16 PM »
The best way to deal with a high, fast P51 with a skilled pilot in it for example?


I know this is a rhetorical question, but for demonstration purposes for Waldron I figured I'd weigh in:

First, if it's me I'm probably in an F4U, either a 1A or 4 if I'm looking for aerial kills. I also generally cruise at 15k if I'm not sure at what altitude the fight will be (and to deal with high-alt runners such as Mr. Waldron) so have plenty of air under me to work with. I see said Pony about 5k above me moving at a good clip.

My first move is to keep separation. I turn away and enter a shallow climb to use what distance I have to narrow the alt difference without shedding too much airspeed. I keep my eye on the 51 the entire time and watch for him to make his move. If I see him begin to close on me I level out my climb and enter a shallow turn--possibly slightly nose down to build a little speed--to keep him from getting into the blind spot under my tail. I hold this until I see him close to between 1000-1500 yards, then break hard into either a Split-S or Low-Yo under him. I know at high closure rates he can't follow that sort of maneuver and will have to pull out. As soon as I pull through the bottom I enter a zoom to regain altitude.

Here is where opponent skill affects my next move. If he's a newbie pilot he'll have likely overshot his dive and scrubbed his E trying to pull out, at which point, as I'm in my zoom, I just kick inside rudder and roll over the top and drop on him.

Against a more experienced opponent I extend in my zoom (he'll be doing the same). Generally I'll slowly be gaining over the P-51 on the zoom, courtesy of the Corsair's greater mass and raw power (especially in the F4U-4) so will get just a little more altitude over the Pony. I'll continue grabbing until I see the 51 reverse, then level to repeat the process above: shallow nose-low turn to keep him in view and maintain airspeed, a Low-Yo or Split-S at 1000-1500yds, then a zoom for altitude.

I repeat this either until I've neutralized the 51's alt advantage and can force him to engage in a Co-E/Co-Alt fight where the F4U will eat up the P-51, or until I've reversed positions and now have the energy advantage MSELF and can dictate the fight.

The question I have for Waldron, is how do YOU respond if you're the P-51, WITHOUT resorting to running the instant your first pass was evaded?
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #143 on: June 09, 2008, 03:46:40 PM »
It was a rhetorical question, and I didn't want to turn this into a discussion on tactics.  But since we have two different answers from pilots of different skill levels, it might be worthwhile to point out the general differences.

Had Yarbles tried that vs me for example, I wouldn't have followed him low and slow.  I'd have let him drop if he wanted, and simply picked him later when it was convenient and he'd lost his speed.  Not because I wanted to pick him, but because he'd be "no threat" anymore, and I'd shift to planes that mattered.  At this point his tactics are far from aggressive, so I'll put him in my category of "keep an eye on him, but look for bigger threats.

A) Kill the biggest threat first. He's not it, since he is willing to drop alt and E, it gives me a big hint as to his skill level and/or intentions.  If he see's me not following and decides to come back up, he'll be in a bad position to deal with me.  If he flies off the map and comes back above me, so much the better.  I can dodge high planes 'til the cows come home, and the alt may make him feel confident enough to get himself in trouble. 

B) I only put in the amount of effort required to shoot the guy down.  If he wants to drop and make things easier for me, I'll put in less effort (I'll pick him).  If he makes that difficult, I'll put more effort into it as well.

C) Following him low and slow puts me in a bad position for my next kill, especially if he's heading toward his field/ack.  I don't need to stay high, but I don't want to be swarmed on the deck either.  Having too much alt can be almost as bad as too little, unless sight-seeing is my goal. 

Saxman though- he's a problem.  He's trying to bleed my energy advantage, all the while maintaining or increasing his altitude and E relative to mine.  It's going to take more effort to beat him, and it's going to be much more important that I do so.  I can't let him go away like I can the guy who fights as Yarbles describes.  I'm going to need to put a lot of pressure on Saxman to keep my advantage and press it home.  Extending and giving him room to breath would be a bad idea.  The fight may end up on the deck, but not right away.  P51's can be beat up high too, and it's more advantagous to both of us to keep the fight high.  It helps keeps the fight "private" if nothing else.

The difference is that Saxman has LEARNED how to deal with difficult situations, and can often reverse things in his favor.  He didn't learn that by leaving when things got bad.  He also didn't learn it by getting beat and not figuring out WHY and how to change that result.  Getting beat (or winning, for that matter) IS pointless if you don't/can't learn from it.  He's using more complex tactics that require more practice to master, but yield better results in the end.  That also hints that if his initial "plan" doesn't work, he'll recognize that early enough to try other tactics.  He didn't run away when the teacher pulled out the algebra book.

Personally, "living" is important to me as well.  I'm not telling you to dive into the slaughter mindlessly.  I take the most enjoyment from beating someone in a "fair" fight, and "living" to land my kills.  Getting shot down is not equal to shooting him down, IMO.  But picking someone for a kill isn't equal to beating him in a decent fight either.  Picking is something I do while waiting for a decent fight, kind of like eating peanuts in a bar.  Better than nothing I suppose, but not all that satisfying.  Picking will never go away, but hopefully it won't become the "main" way of fighting either.
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Offline moot

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #144 on: June 09, 2008, 03:57:42 PM »
I dont think I am missing the point I think there are lots of good reasons why newer or less able pilots would want to avoid meeting  more experienced and able pilots other than with the advantage. When they are losing the advantage it is sound advice to get out of there and in practice if anyone reads real accounts pilots in WW2 did secure the advantage and if they new who the aces were they would have ignored them.
No.  They should stack the odds on their side as much as they can, and fight it out to the end.  They shouldn't just give up making any effort as soon as extreme bnz isn't possible anymore. 

Better pilots with egos.. If they do pretend to be top tier but don't take a hard fight when given a chance.. they aren't top tier.  I don't dodge good hard fights.. And the ego thing is mostly a convenient buzz word.  Anyway it has nothing to do with the completely misleading "advice" you and the OP author keep repeating. 

You can't learn anything if you don't do anything.  That's what running away without fighting amounts to.

Quote
Narrow minded because people enjoy the game in different ways and not everyone is into a fantasy macho trial by fire ego trip.
Ha.. You're reading too much between the lines.. As much as I might give you that impression, I did it mostly because it was fun.  I did persevere also because I like to win, but since you're obsessed with that aspect - I don't see how there's anything negative about that sort of ego.  Where's the connection? Is the only way not to have excessive ego, to give up and make half-arsed efforts at what you try out?
What a completely bogus perspective..

Pompous Nonsense :D

Some guy comes on here and gives a few ideas and the response is awash with self righteous posturing by people who should surely know better.

In my humble ;) opinion 
Completely wrong.. The "guy" comes in here and pretends to have some advice that's in fact completely misleading in terms of dogfighting etc, and also completely misrepresents the "aces" as you two keep putting it.  He gets shot down for it as he should.  You denounce it for what?  The facts or the manner they were pointed out?  Neither is misplaced.

"The aces want the noobs not to learn and give em easy kills".  What a ton of crap.. If anything, the "aces" wish the newbies would better appreciate the art in air combat, and improve their skills so that everyone would have more fun in the process.  A win-win situation.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 04:06:40 PM by moot »
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2008, 04:16:49 PM »
"The best way to deal with a high, fast P51 with a skilled pilot in it for example?"

Since someone did open the tactics door I had almost this exact scenario this weekend, except I was in a Spit XVI with a Typhoon perched ~3K above me.  We were the only ones in the area.

I turned my tail on him and stayed level until I saw him start to dive on me.  I nosed down gradually, building speed and drawing him lower, the goal being to draw him off his perch and start to equalize E states.  When he hit 1K out I reversed at near blackout.  Moving faster, because he was gaining on me, there is no way he could turn tighter without going into a complete blackout.

When he didn't run, but stayed to fight I knew I was in for a good one.  It was a good pilot (and a trainer).  I won but I think he stalled trying to pull a vertical roll opposite tourqe and I sprayed him across the length of the fuelage from the side.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 04:22:43 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline pluck

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2008, 04:24:26 PM »
What I find genuinely sad about this is that you have to speak as part of a group "we this and we that" and that at no point have i been trying to tell anyone what to do.

If you read earlier posts you will see that people are affronted by an alternative and obviously intermediate step to make the game more interesting at a certain level. Then we get macho assertions of how indivduals have clawed there way up against terrible odds to be the great pilots they are today. Then accusations about people with no skill deviously destroying the righteous in pursuit of the true game. Then how these individuals will pervert the new away from this righteous path of accomplished ACM.

Pompous Nonsense :D

Some guy comes on here and gives a few ideas and the response is awash with self righteous posturing by people who should surely know better.

In my humble ;) opinion 

ok, fine, I'll drop the  "we" and just replace it with I.  Again I think your perception of what is going on with this thread is off.  I think that the easiest way to go isn't going to help you get any better.  I do not think I am a macho ace fighter pilot, but I have spent time in the muck learning the few things that I know.  I hope that in the future there we be more pilots who want to get better instead of climbing to 20k and picking at furballs saying the are flying realistic.  I don't care if I get picked, but I don't think of it as a good fight.  I think you should fly however you like, but I think encouraging people to give up on trying to learn and get better is never a good thing.  I think your perception of what is going on in this thread is way off.  I think you and waldo (or whatever his name is if he hasn't been banned yet) are off base saying others are going on with "self righteous" posturing.  In fact, I think they are noting the fact that learning is a process and no one is an ace in one day, everyone gets killed alot during this time.  This is regarded, apparently, as self righteous posturing and pompous nonsense.  This is help and training, telling someone to do something which in the long run won't help and is far from training seems odd at best.  I think the next topic should be "the ins and outs of bomb'n'bail."  I'm done now as I surely realize this is going nowhere  
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Offline moot

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2008, 05:17:23 PM »
I think you should fly however you like, but I think encouraging people to give up on trying to learn and get better is never a good thing.  I think your perception of what is going on in this thread is way off.  I think you and waldo (or whatever his name is if he hasn't been banned yet) are off base saying others are going on with "self righteous" posturing.  In fact, I think they are noting the fact that learning is a process and no one is an ace in one day, everyone gets killed alot during this time.  This is regarded, apparently, as self righteous posturing and pompous nonsense.  This is help and training, telling someone to do something which in the long run won't help and is far from training seems odd at best. 
Exactly..
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Offline uptown

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2008, 09:11:44 PM »
There's alot of good information in this thread
Lighten up Francis

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Learn Who The Enemy Aces Are
« Reply #149 on: June 10, 2008, 12:25:55 AM »
dont know about you guys but this guy is a grade A troll.

I will say Bruv likes killing noobs and has a big baby seal club ready to be bathed in blood.   The way I learnt was kill or be killed aint no other way baby!


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