rolling scissors

[Kotari]

Not saying, like i would know anything about flying this game... but this is how i see it when i try it (not to get shot)

I tend to use the defensive spiral quite a lot, but usually the guy behind me is too good to be fooled with it.
For me, it's something to use when all else doesn't seem to be option.
CO-E con behind, lets say a spit16 or N1K, they can maneuver that gun platform too well for me to expose too much wings for them, so thats when i usually try to evade by going nose low and then spiral.
If it works, i usually try to go vertical and start rolling scissors.
Anyway, if he shoots any good, i'm dead

[Spatula]

Spatula put his clip up also way back when. The a-20 is one of the few planes I can initiate a "rolling scissor fight" with as an offensive move. The problem is that in the end it relies on getting slower then the con and once you see it a few times guys learn to appear to "accept" it but then transition to a climbing spiral type of fight.

I'd recommend focusing on variation in AoA vs "vertical alignment"....you want either an ascending or decending rolling scissor based on what gives you the edge vs the other guy. If you handle high AoA better take it up, if you can scrub E better take it down (just my opinion)...

Heres the link to spatula's film of the fight (hope its still up)...

Best thing to to fly a few with the other guy fiming so you can see what your rolling scissor looks like to him...
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/taurineman/spat_humble.zip

try this
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=spat_humble.zip

lookin back at it, i never really attempted to commit to the rolling scissors properly, instead preferring to keep my speed up so i had options. Its also an example of the faster aircraft dictating the terms of engagement.

[BaldEagl]

Not saying, like i would know anything about flying this game... but this is how i see it when i try it (not to get shot)

I tend to use the defensive spiral quite a lot, but usually the guy behind me is too good to be fooled with it.
For me, it's something to use when all else doesn't seem to be option.
CO-E con behind, lets say a spit16 or N1K, they can maneuver that gun platform too well for me to expose too much wings for them, so thats when i usually try to evade by going nose low and then spiral.
If it works, i usually try to go vertical and start rolling scissors.
Anyway, if he shoots any good, i'm dead

OK, I kind of lied.  You do see 190's try it all the time except that they are usually  "dancing by themselves" out in front of you while you shoot them down.  It's not a well choreographed manouver like it is whan you're "dancing cheek to cheek" 

[cobia38]

 here are two short films A20 vs f6f 2 sepret fights. both good examples of  rolling scissors


http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view&current=a20-vs-f6fround1.flv

http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view&current=a20-vs-f6fround2.flv

[Bosco123]

That sounds more like a rope to me. Rolling scissors are quite different.  If you see me online uptown I will duel you a few time and we can work on it.  I use the move quite a bit.

Its not a rope, its just a fight upwards, both of them have the same speeds, its just the one that can hold there nose higher than the other guy, untill he or you stall.

When you go into the first merge, you do the usual loop or whatever it is that you do. When you come out of the loop, you usually are pointing at each other, thats when you try and do a second loop, but you do not have enough airspeed, so you do a climbing turn. Again, you come around and you see that you guys are looking right at eachother, and again you do a climbing turn, just in the opposite direction that you started on the first turn. Also, you should have pretty much al of you flaps extended because yo have absolutly have no airspeed. this usually continues untill you cannot get that climb advantage and one of you has to do a flat turn and thats when you usually gain the advantage.
E management is the key while tring to do a scissor with someone.
<S>

[BaldEagl]

BTW Bosco, love your avitar.   

[EDIT]  Well, OK... love might be a little strong... like.

[uptown]

I tryed it several times in the MA this weekend but couldn't get anyone to follow me up  I guess alot think it's a rope because after a second or 2 they'd turn back giving me a easy shot most of the time. I reckon a kill is a kill, but............

Thanks for all the great films.

[Agent360]

I tryed it several times in the MA this weekend but couldn't get anyone to follow me up  I guess alot think it's a rope because after a second or 2 they'd turn back giving me a easy shot most of the time. I reckon a kill is a kill, but............

Thanks for all the great films.

Getting into rolling scissors is part of it. If u pull an obvious rope or a strong break turn then the target will just break off.

The trick is to draw them in close...inside 600...go to a high g turn...enough to still bait them....then just pull up and roll over. You are now in scissors.

If they kinda go up for the top or extend keep the turn opposite of them and come back. Keep the turning up. Use the remergeto start scissors again.

Takes practice but if you really think about it....almost every fight you have will involve scissors...you just dont't see it because it involves seperation. You can be in scissors with a target 1k out.

[Bosco123]

BTW Bosco, love your avitar.   

[EDIT]  Well, OK... love might be a little strong... like.

lol yea I like it to. I'll send you a PM on were I found it.
<S>

[Yossarian]

Here is what it looks like for AH, from a duel between bighorn vs domin

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg

A quick question about this film:  could the pilot not have rolled his wings further to the left, for example at 1:41, and then pulled back in order to get his nose pointed at where his opponent would be shortly afterwards?  If not, why?

<S>

Yossarian

[2bighorn]

If not, why?

Absolute limit. It would stall.

[uptown]

if you notice the plane was in stall most of the time...the shaking

[TequilaChaser]

A quick question about this film:  could the pilot not have rolled his wings further to the left, for example at 1:41, and then pulled back in order to get his nose pointed at where his opponent would be shortly afterwards?  If not, why?
<S>
Yossarian

Absolute limit. It would stall.

if you notice the plane was in stall most of the time...the shaking

everyone thinks differently about this, but you can be right on the edge of the stall and be buffeting yet still maintain control......so what this means is you are "Riding The Edge of the Stall"........

some people also listen to the Stall Horn sound, it begins and is very faint/low volume the more you pull into the stall the louder it gets... I try to stay close to medium volume and under when I am in a "Close In KNIFE fight".....kind of like the linked film Bighorn/barbarossa/( aka Maha   ROFL )  posted above......

there is a saying/quote.....that I hold very close in my strong opinionated ACM beliefs...

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner
or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
                                 Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
                                 U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor

[RTHolmes]

useful discussion and films, ty

[2bighorn]

Bighorn/barbarossa/( aka Maha   ROFL )