Help w/ TnB Plzor

[Yenny]

Ok a bit off topic from the getting the hits but the first thing u should change is T&Bing in the K-4.  It is NOT made for that. It was made as an interceptor with a big, strong, inaccurate gun meant to kill big lumbering bombers.  It also had fast speed and unmatched climb rate to be able to get to the bombers quicly.  The speed and climb are the strengths you should play to.  Also it would help you tons if you try something such as a spiral climb or rope instead of the scissors because the 109 is only an average roller.  Also if you look a little further down the page agent 360 has some great films you can watch.

You can tnb w/ K4 just fine, I've taken down a lot of spits, and zero in the K4. Just gotta use other stuff then just flat turns. In the vid I link I had a good 5-6 min fight vs a spit 8, but then again he's probably new and making a lot of mistake. Flying 190D for a while, that thing can't maneuver worth crap  , K4 is godlike compare to 190D in that aspect.

[evenhaim]

If you can see your target in the 109K you're not leading enough.

wrong. just gotta relax the nose.

[Agent360]

I looked at your film....kinda long. Found a few parts where you were firing. BTW next time pick short clips that have what we want to see. It was very nice k4 flying though. Nice use of vert and stall turning at the top. Ill have to watch out for ya...heheh

I found your shots and slowed them down to extremly slow. You can see that by the time your rounds get to the target they are passing a half plane length behind and farther as your burst goes on.

A few tips.

You can't hit jack watermelon pulling G's...even close in. Try it alllll you want to but u aint gonna hit watermelon pulling g's

When you have caught your target and are closing inside 400....close some more....and close some more after that...close to inside 100 and fire slightly in front of the targets nose. When you get this close the lead is managable. But u MUST be close.

To avoid high G shots set up your gun solutions at the top when he turns. Here you are going up and slowing...have a stable plane...and can use very little rudder to adjust with. Shoot here as he comes down. IF you miss u simple follow him down and probably get a shot again next time he goes up.

If the con is 400 or more out and is going to turn to you. MAKE a gun solution and shoot where the plane will be. I used to hold shots like this but I hit about 75% of the time now. If you have seperation enough for the con to attempt turn into you.....you have time to low or hi yoyo and make a shot.

Typical lead is about 1.5 inches from con to your sight measured in actual distance on screen.

The simplest way to figure it out is to just lead waaaayyyy to far and shoot. If you can't lead wayyyyy to far and still see the target then you are too close(see above) or pulling to many g's
To start you will lead wayyyyy to far and still its not enough. Lead even more wayyyyy to far. Finally when you score an explosion you will then see. It takes alot of sensory training to convince yourself that you really have to lead so much. Its not natural. I sometime will shoot when I see the target outside of my windscreen....thats like half my screen width....and sometimes that is still too late. It depends on the rate of closure and angle of course.

Finally...you have to "create" your shots. If you just fly around chasing people in high g turns you AINT GONNA HIT CHIT. Work the angles continuously maneuvering to create a pass through your guns. With 30mm high closure snap shots are a kill shot not a wounding shot.

I live on snap shots. I avoid tail chasing at all costs.

Agent360

[Yenny]

Ahh thanks, I was doing high G shots w/ the tater. I will work on snapshot and know when to prefire them snapshots.

<S> Agent

Yenny

[Yenny]

What's the best way to tackle Corsair? They seem to be super maneuverable. Take them to the vertical? Force them into high yo yo using the K4's climbs and then go into low yo yo again to convert the E?

[Widewing]

What's the best way to tackle Corsair? They seem to be super maneuverable. Take them to the vertical? Force them into high yo yo using the K4's climbs and then go into low yo yo again to convert the E?

Yes, take the fight vertical. Climbing turns, steep and shallow spirals, anything to bleed down their E state. I've dueled with many of the better F4U sticks with 109s, and they know that if they see me take the fight vertical, it's time to get some separation and attempt to reset the fight. Of course, I don't let them do that..  Usually when faced with a 109 pinning it down, the F4U driver will be hoping to force an overshoot. To avoid this, simply go vertical every time the F4U maneuvers to force you past. If uninterrupted, you will bleed the F4U down to just above stall speed.

I don't mind getting into a turning contest with F4Us either, assuming I'm flying a G-2 or even a G-6. The Corsair turns very small circles with flaps out, but the 109 has a much faster turn rate (flaps out). Turn rate will beat turn radius most of the time as higher turn rate means faster and faster means you can drag the turn fight up hill. A flaps out F4U-1, -1A, -1C or -1D cannot match this. The F4U-4 presents a different problem as it CAN maneuver in the vertical reasonably well, even with flaps out.

The greatest strength of the F4U is the ability to transition from high speed E fighting to stall fighting in an almost seamless manner. They are very dangerous with any reasonable amount of E. Few fighters have instantaneous turning ability like the Corsair. Your goal must be to bleed their E, break them down and get the kill shot. Just remember that F4Us have a substantial bag of tricks available. Their landing gear doubled as dive brakes, so they can dump them at high speed. They can get flaps out at much higher speeds than the 109s. They handle better at high speeds and are superior in the roll axis. Nonetheless, their weaknesses can be exploited.

My regards,

Widewing

[Adonai]

Here's a film with Cmustard in an F4u and myself in a 109g6 I believe, unfortunally film rolled after I bled his E going vert right off bat and he
tried to follow me. This is where he dove down and I missed the rope. Film takes off here.

Basically he tries to turn sharp w/ flaps and get me in a turn fight, I counter by going vert and going over the top.
As wide says key to winning a fight in a 109 or ANY other plane is knowing your plane inside out and knowing what its capable of.

However my version of the 109, the G6 is hardly the better of the 109s - its slower, heavier turns less and has hardly the engine power of a G14/K4 only good side it has decent gun package which makes up for the loss in speed, turn ability.

Some like better guns, others however - like myself in certain situations i trade the gun package for speed in the G2 in some flights when I seen p51's only picking or 190s

[spit16nooby]

I think I should rephrase my post you should refrain from turning but it is very possible to do.  In fact before the speeds get really low you can turn with spits.  The key is to lower throttle and use a notch or two of flaps when appropriate.  Also if you can keep the nose up some only a few planes can keep up with a spiral climb by the K-4 and none if it is done by a great pilot.(close planes are ki-84, spit 16, and spit8)

[Yenny]

How's La5 performance at at 8k? Earlier today I got in a tangle w/ an La5 at about 5k. He had a bit more E then I did but not much. Maybe 50 knts. He went into a spiral climbs, I saw that and figure my K4 should be able to keep up. We both had flaps down, wep on, and pushing about 85 knts nose up. To my surprise the La5 was able to out climb my K4 for a bit and able to nose over coming almost straight at me from above for a shot. I rolled out and avoid the shot, but I was surprise it could perform in the climb.

[Lusche]

How's La5 performance at at 8k? 

Not that good anymore in comparison to the K-4. Climb rate is on par up to about 3k only, then dropping rapidly. WEP climb rate at 8K is approximately 900 ft/min less than the 109K's.

But if I recall correctly, the La5 can fly considerable slower than the K-4, and that may have helped keeping the nose up.

[Agent360]

Both the la5 and la7 have considerably better "Zoom" than the k4. Most likly he had some zoom left. If you went up at 85 mph you wont get much out of that. Also your fuel status matters. If the la was light on fuel and your heavy at 75% or more then he wins that contest.

But if you enter your climb with more speed say around 150 or better then you can keep up if you time it so that he burns off the zoom by the time you catch him.

In the situation you describe its better to let them go to the top and you wait below keeping airspeed. They will drop in and you then follow for the second climb. You will almost always catch them on the second zoom attemtp. But if its the first one it hit and miss whether they have the speed or whether you dont.

[Yenny]

I took a bit of what everyone said about aiming the tater and adjust fire. I been working on making the opponent giving me that snapshot, and that seems to work the best. Anywho I film some K4 action again tonight using the new aiming tactic w/ the tater and here are the results. Short lil film about 12 min of K4 tnb actions.

http://files.filefront.com/109k4actionsahf/;10634798;/fileinfo.html

Yenny

[CAP1]

Hey people,

Lately I've been bored w/ BnZ and begun to explore low on the deck tnbing. I've found my favorite two planes for that job, G2 and K4. I'm getting the concept of reversing, scissors, etc. I still have a few problems with learning to lead my shot w/ TnB, at least when it comes to the tater.

How do you guys aim your tater? Let say in a tnb situation, I usually have my piper on my target, but not through. Usually the range is between 100-200 yards. I have my conversion set at 200, for both tater and 13mm mgs. When I BnZ I usually shoot at 200 yards, with my piper directly on my targets. That doesn't seems to work too well w/ TnB. Do I need to have my piper through target? Even though it's at 200 yards? Is it better to shoot just the tater alone? I've been firing both tater and mgs at once when I have a shot.

I don't know many tricks in the G2 and K4, other then scissor reverse, rolling scissors, and chop throttle nose down reverse. Only been experimenting with TnB for about a week, so I'm still lacking a lot of knowledge. If you guys can input some other trick it would be awesome, maybe a film to go along w/ the trick and some explanation. I've record some film of my k4 tnb action last night. My intent is to get some feed back of what I need to do to improve on the tnb side. If you guys could watch and and tell me what I'm doing wrong. You could see I'm "missing" a lot of my tater shots.

http://files.filefront.com/TnB1ahf/;10607479;/fileinfo.html

PS: I know you guys love the flaming, but let's try to keep it off this thread this time.

Thanks,
Yenny

we don't love flaming. we only do it when forced to do it.
that said, when i'm in a furball, i generally seem to hit my tr\argets better whern i don't really have time to aim properly. i gusee a form of ""shooting from the hip?"" i don't really know how to describe it, but when i see a con cmming into my view, and he's crossing at a rather sharp angle, i pop off a few rounds when it ""feels"" right. i don't know if that makes sense to you guys or not, but it seems to work for me.
 the other thing if there's not so many cons that i can't concentrate on my target alone, i just follow him. if i have time to aim, i miss a lot. but inevitably, everyone makes the same mistake. they go verticle. everyone seems to come to a point in a slow turnfight that they seem to think that although you're matching them move for move, that if they go up, they'll gain an advantage. this is actually the easiest shot for me, as there isn't much lead required, and he's almst stationary up above ya. i've made that mistake more than my share of times too . the downside to that shot, is that you need to pull a little sharper than he is to get the lead. if you stall first(which he's banking on) then you're dead.

hope this helps a little anyway!!

welcome to the madness known as furballing!!!!!!

<<S>>

[moot]

fire them one or two at a time - one or two audible "thuds" at a time. Your timing needs to be very good. Practice, practice, practice.

The default 30mm sound might be as much as twice as slow as the MK108's actual rate of fire.  I clipped it to match the gun's rof:
http://rapidshare.com/files/77804480/30mm_1.wav

[Yenny]

we don't love flaming. we only do it when forced to do it.
that said, when i'm in a furball, i generally seem to hit my tr\argets better whern i don't really have time to aim properly. i gusee a form of ""shooting from the hip?"" i don't really know how to describe it, but when i see a con cmming into my view, and he's crossing at a rather sharp angle, i pop off a few rounds when it ""feels"" right. i don't know if that makes sense to you guys or not, but it seems to work for me.
 the other thing if there's not so many cons that i can't concentrate on my target alone, i just follow him. if i have time to aim, i miss a lot. but inevitably, everyone makes the same mistake. they go verticle. everyone seems to come to a point in a slow turnfight that they seem to think that although you're matching them move for move, that if they go up, they'll gain an advantage. this is actually the easiest shot for me, as there isn't much lead required, and he's almst stationary up above ya. i've made that mistake more than my share of times too . the downside to that shot, is that you need to pull a little sharper than he is to get the lead. if you stall first(which he's banking on) then you're dead.

hope this helps a little anyway!!

welcome to the madness known as furballing!!!!!!

<<S>>

Oh you know I'm a BnZmer at heart =), but it's good to work on other side of the game