July FSO, Der Zeite Blitz: 1945

[33Vortex]

I believe the French had the same thought in 1940, but with Tanks.  Didn't work out too well for them either.

 

[AKKaz]

As a steady temp pilot (not a good one by any means), I have gone up against numerous 262's from all diferent angles.  I think you are giving the spit14 and temps to much credit here. As long as the jets don't start turn fighting, you get maybe 1 to 2 turns with them at best.  Then the acceleration factor kicks in and it's forget it.  Granted most don't know how to specifically fight the 262, but with most trying catch the arados, it doesn't take much for a pack of jets to swoop and shoot.  Will be interesting, for sure, but the 14's and the temps doing 450-500 tryin to catch the arados, it isn't that easy to just move aside from a couple of bnz 262's.

And yes, we are requesting allied.  Will be extremely interesting.

[AKKaz]

Actually "vulching is a very real part of war, many german 262's were lost while trying to RTB. This is one of the major drawbackes for the axis CiC to ponder. While his offensive mission is clear, he has to provide a cohesive defense to recover his assets. I'd bet more then a few arado's and 262s go down on final...

While this may be true in history, it is something that may or may not be a good addition to have in the FSO.  It would pay me to stay out past end of frame time to hit as many returnees trying to get down before the time limit is up.  It's really not to hard to figuire out, that close to frame end on where returnees will be landing. If I kill 2, that well makes up for the my plane lost from not landing. If 3 of us stay out, and keep 4 or 5 up dodging past frame end, it still pays. It is happening, happened last frame with some opponents having no real concern on landing and getting as many kills as they could before frame end. We have left fights or past up nmy cons in the past FSO's many times because time is down to minimal and had to press hard to get landed.

Is it valid, sure, is this mentality something we need in mission orientated event.... that would be something the community would have to answer. 

[Stoney]

While this may be true in history, it is something that may or may not be a good addition to have in the FSO...It is happening, happened last frame with some opponents having no real concern on landing and getting as many kills as they could before frame end...Is it valid, sure, is this mentality something we need in mission orientated event.... that would be something the community would have to answer.

I'll save the community from having to answer for this.  Vulching in its strict sense is not tolerated within this FSO, i.e. strafing planes on the runway.  Within my power to glean information regarding such conduct from the logs and player film, kills garnered on the runway will not be scored.  That being said, there is nothing wrong with the Allies, in this case, using the tactic of trying to intercept enemy aircraft over enemy territory using anticipatory screens, etc.  That being said, the Allied CIC's shall not hold aircraft in reserve for this purpose, but merely use this type of tactic as the opportunity presents itself later in the frame.  All aircraft for both sides must be dedicated towards the completion of any of the 8 objectives assigned to each side for all 3 frames.

If I have not made myself crystal clear to anyone, let me know via PM and I will reinforce this policy in terms that you can better comprehend.

Last, I will adjust the rules in the weekly objectives to provide incentives for folks to successfully RTB without creating undue pressure on myself through an extrememly complex and time consuming nut-roll during my scoring.

[humble]

My intent is not to encourage vulching but the simple reality is that the 262's required a fighter screen for both takeoff and landing. While the takeoff is protected the landing isnt. How is this any different then the fights over A1 in every of the 3 current frames. The P-39's didnt have the legs to sustain combat operation for the full frame and both times we rearmed it was on a contested field. An artifical "safe line" eliminates the axis CiC responsibility to recover his assets. The P-51's and P-47's have the capability to stay up the entire frame, the german planes do not. While the allies will certainly struggle with the speed of the arados the germans will have there own issues protecting there fields. Certainly at least one allied goal will/should be eliminating any 262's and arado's that get dinged up. While the 262's certainly will control the fight they are in they will be very vulnerable to flights of higher ponies and jug's entering the fight as well as 30K flights over the egress points and landing area's...

[Guppy35]

Just the observations of an outsider so feel free to ignore them

I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will.  If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s.

Bearkats was right in using th DGS experience. 2 262s made a huge difference and were untouchable unless the pilot made a mistake.

Stampf states that 262s were used extensively during the war.  I think that's a stretch when you compare them to the 'extensive' use of the 109, 51 or whatever. 

Remember that the 262 didn't tip the balance because it never was there in effective numbers.  Had it been, the airwar would have been a different ball game.

Also remember that the Temps and XIVs along with the 51s patrolled the jet airfields and spent a lot of time 'rat catching' or trying to get them low and slow at their bases or low fuel. 

Just as an aside, it appears you've thrown the entire Ta152 production run into the fight too short of a couple

[daddog]

ctually "vulching is a very real part of war, many german 262's were lost while trying to RTB.

We even have a Snapshot based on this. http://ahevents.org/western-european-theatre/the-man-who-downed-nowotny.html

[Jester]

Just the observations of an outsider so feel free to ignore them

I don't care how you sugercoat it with 'well flown' Temps, etc, the jets are going to be able to operate at will.  If you assume 'well flown' Temps and XIVs, you must assume "well flown' 262s and 234s.

Bearkats was right in using th DGS experience. 2 262s made a huge difference and were untouchable unless the pilot made a mistake.

Stampf states that 262s were used extensively during the war.  I think that's a stretch when you compare them to the 'extensive' use of the 109, 51 or whatever. 

Remember that the 262 didn't tip the balance because it never was there in effective numbers.  Had it been, the airwar would have been a different ball game.

Also remember that the Temps and XIVs along with the 51s patrolled the jet airfields and spent a lot of time 'rat catching' or trying to get them low and slow at their bases or low fuel. 

Just as an aside, it appears you've thrown the entire Ta152 production run into the fight too short of a couple

Please don't take me wrong - I am new to the FSO's and I really appreciate all you guys that work and plan the FSO's - I think they are the "Big Leagues" of the sim flying in AH. However with that said I am going to have to agree with Guppy here - a couple of 262's can tie up a whole squadron of prop fighters - the number of jets allocated is "kinda" historically a stretch and will completely dominate the sky - even when they are flown by an average skilled pilot.

Historically, the Allies knew they couldn't match these planes in the skies so they "blanketed" every field they knew of to catch the jets landing or on the ground being serviced. It was a legitimate mission for them.

I am pretty new to FSO's so I don't want to come across as a "Know-All" but over the years I flown the jets in several LW squads in the CT/AVA and I know what they will do. So if the number of the jets isn't lowered or the Allied CO isn't allowed the tactic of catching the jets on the field you have pretty much tied the Allies hands and handed the win over to the Axis side IMHO.

My $.02 - take it for what it is worth.

 

[33Vortex]

This scenario is clearly designed ahistorically, so any and all historical reference you can throw out the window.

Now... with that in mind, would it be safe to assume that the allies would not have the airpower to contend the LW over France? Just like the LW did not contend with the allied air power outside of Germany in late '44 to '45? Because clearly, in this scenario, Germany hold the upper hand much like the allies did in DGS where LW fighters were not allowed to pursue beyond a certain point. So the question is, who is on the offense, who is on defense?

Just pointing at these reasons, as to why not allow allies cross the channel. For the same reasons in the BoB scenarios essentially, and for the same reasons the LW are not allowed to pursue in 44-45 scenarios.

It's up to the staff to decide, it certainly would be a challenge for axis if the allies would pursue to home bases. I would not mind either way. It's just that allies seem to protest as soon as they're not favored, because the allies won the war, they expect to win. Luftwaffe sticks are used to being the underdog, sometimes we win regardless. My advice is, suck it up and have some fun. It's what we do most of the time.

Bottom line is, whatever the staff decide on, it will be fun regardless. Whichever side wins, it will be fun regardless. 

[moot]

You guys should reduce the 262 numbers.  Fortunately you'll have the first frame to give you hard evidence to adapt from.  The only counter balance to 64x262s I see is the Spit16s.. and that's only if the 3 64-max allied planes are filled and outweighed by at least as many spit16s.
Will be fun anyway.

[Sled]

It's up to the staff to decide, it certainly would be a challenge for axis if the allies would pursue to home bases. I would not mind either way. It's just that allies seem to protest as soon as they're not favored, because the allies won the war, they expect to win. Luftwaffe sticks are used to being the underdog, sometimes we win regardless. My advice is, suck it up and have some fun. It's what we do most of the time.

Bottom line is, whatever the staff decide on, it will be fun regardless. Whichever side wins, it will be fun regardless.  

The idea for this event started with me. Stoney took that idea and made it his own, and I like what he has done.

Too many 262's? Maybe, we will have to see. The numbers could be lowered for frames 2 and 3.

But you guys need to remember the intention here. We WANT this to be tough on the Allies. We want them to be at a (slight to moderate) disadvantage. This "what if " event is about a Britain that is on it's heels in 1945, and is still defending it's skies from more and more German attacks. Involving more advanced fighters. In this event the German industry is in good condition, they are producing many high performance AC that are now flying over Britain. The British are having trouble dealing with it. But fortunately for them (with help from America) they also are able to produce high performance AC to meet them.

Now the short coming to all of this. If this situation had played out, I firmly believe that the Germans would be using a different group of AC. Ones that were never made. The German AC that we fly in AH were designed to attack and quickly destroy large bombers, not fighters. Yes, 30mm's will rip a fighters wing off with one shell, but the makers of the Rhine Metal Borsik (sp) MK108 cannon, were making a weapon that would destroy large AC quickly with minimal hits. It is a low velocity hard hitting explosive shell. It has poor range, and is difficult to use against small fast AC, as well as not being known for its long range effectiveness.

With these and other facts, I am not convinced the Germans are going to dominate the skies. we will see.

[moot]

Yeah the 152 isn't what it could have been.  The MK103 also could have showed up more commonly, etc.   It'll be a fun scenario without a doubt, though.

[Sled]

You guys should reduce the 262 numbers.  Fortunately you'll have the first frame to give you hard evidence to adapt from.  The only counter balance to 64x262s I see is the Spit16s.. and that's only if the 3 64-max allied planes are filled and outweighed by at least as many spit16s.
Will be fun anyway.

So are you suggesting that the Axis will completely dominate in kills and score?


Care to make it interesting?

[AKKaz]

Maybe with such fast planes and large numbers, ease up some on the +60 rule to give the planners some more room?

[Dantoo]

My tuppence 'orth:

Dominant plane in this one = P47N