Flying the P-47

[bj229r]

  You guys just don't listen, do you ?  I DON'T FLY FIGHTERS.  I DON'T DOGFIGHT...  PERIOD!.  I'll do some tactical bombing with a fighter, but that's the extent of my interest in fighter planes.  I burned out on that stuff 20 years ago playing "Wings of the Luftwaffe". 
  In my opinion fighters are largely irrelevant in this game. ....snip

If you don't fly them, what gives you authority to comment on them? My skills are only slightly above average (sad, considering how long I've been at this ) But ALL I fly are jugs, and I usually end up mixing it up down low, and live more often than not. My major grief in life comes from K4's and good f4 sticks--This month, I flew nothing but D25 for 'fighter' runs, and ended up with near 2 kills per sortie (MORE than a few bombers in there, but if they gonna fly em...) D40 for 'attack'---hitting only hangars, gv's or cv's with eggs---no strats-(poor K/D, but ok otherwise) NO reason whatsoever the jug --ANY jug-- cant be your every day ride for any task

[uptown]

Waldron is correct on all counts. The rest of you twits are noobs!


Praise be to the Waldron

[BaldEagl]

2. The P-47 is a GREAT b'n'z fighter. I consider the P-47N, the P-51D, and the FW-190D9 to be neck-and-neck in that role. Thing about the Jug, it can beat he latter two in a turn fight, with equal pilots. Yes, that includes the P-51.

Gotta disagree with your on that one.  I tried turn fighting a P-51D on the deck in a P-47N this camp and he made mince meat out of me within 5 turns.

[ian5440]

Gotta disagree with your on that one.  I tried turn fighting a P-51D on the deck  in a P-47N this camp and he made mince meat out of me within 5 turns.

well bring that fight up 18k and the 47 will win that turn fight

[uptown]

A P47D-11&25 will out turn a pony but the D40 and N won't. I've got 10 kills on Jugs this tour and was only killed by 4. Above 10k or so I really have to struggle with them. Below that, I usually don't have much trouble killing them with my pony.

[BnZ]

Gotta disagree with your on that one.  I tried turn fighting a P-51D on the deck in a P-47N this camp and he made mince meat out of me within 5 turns.

You were probably a good bit heavier than he was. Or, no offense, that pilot was having a better day than you. The fighter comparison websites show the P-47N with a smaller flaps out radius than the Pony. And it is easier-handling on the edge of a stall. This is a pure angles fight of course. If the Pony uses his superior climb to e-fight you, could be more problematic. But I suspect most players think the P-51 easily out-turns the jug (which it really should), whereas, the Jug has a slight edge, and this assumption gives you another edge right off the bat.

[Stoney]

A P47D-11&25 will out turn a pony but the D40 and N won't. I've got 10 kills on Jugs this tour and was only killed by 4. Above 10k or so I really have to struggle with them. Below that, I usually don't have much trouble killing them with my pony.

D-40 should turn the same as a D-25 since it practically weighs the same.  In a sustained fight, it probably out turns the D-25 due to the increased engine power on WEP. 

[uptown]

D-40 should turn the same as a D-25 since it practically weighs the same.  In a sustained fight, it probably out turns the D-25 due to the increased engine power on WEP. 

I stand corrected sir. According to gonzos fighter comparison the D-25 with no flaps has a tighter turn radius by only about 12'.And with full flaps the D-40 edges the D-25 out by a hair.  basically no difference.

[BnZ]

I haven't looked at DokG's in awhile, what were the numbers for the N vrs the D-40? I know the N weights 650 lbs when both planes are loaded for the same flight ime (28 minutes, 50% for the N and 75% for the D-40) but one would think the larger wing and extra power on WEP could make up for it abit in a turning contest.



You know, I don't want to drag this too far off topic, but according to DokG's fighter website, even the 190 D9 turns a smaller circle* than the P-51 with flaps out...with its much higher wingloading and three notches of split flaps, as opposed to the the Mustang's maneuvering flaps. Anyone STILL think there is nothing screwy with the P-51's turn radius. *Yes, I realize this is not practical in actual maneuvering against Mustangs because the 190s flaps come out at such a slow speed, but still, interesting data point.

Did some interesting math based on DokG's turn radii too. Most planes seem to have there turn radii reduced by 24-26% by full flaps vrs no-flaps radius. This was the case with the Jug, and the 38, and the Fw-190 One would think that the Fowler flaps of the 38, which actually increase wing area, would be more effective than the Jug's, and certainly the 190s. Not the case in AHII apparently. The Corsair has gets a 40% reduction in turn radius through flap usage!

But the P-51's turn radius was only reduced by 19% with full flaps.

[RTHolmes]

Fighter planes won't win wars. Bombers win wars.

thats a very 1930's doctrine, by the start of WWII most airforces had realised the vital importance of air superiority. The BoB is a classic example - simply put it was won because the Luftwafe couldn't suppress fighter cover over Britain enough to let bombers and ultimately a ground invasion succeed. same in AH, moreso in fact because bombing an airbase in AH stops fighters upping for 15mins rather than a couple of days IRL.

[Damionte]

Although Air Superiority is important, it won't in and of itself win a war. You have to remove the other sides ability to wage war and force them to surrender. Fighters can't do that. Once you've swept the enemy from the sky, there's nothing left for fighters to do. (Except become bombers.) The thing that fighters do is lower your casualty rate. Helping you win more easily. Other than that though they don't do anything else. Once fighters start shooting at targets on the ground they're no longer being fighters. They're now bombers/attack planes.

Also the BoB was not won due to Germany's inability to suppress British fighters in the air. It was won for Brittan when Germany STOPPED bombing British airfields and shifted to the cities. They stopped bombing and allowed Brittain the resources they needed to continue fighting. When the Germans STOPPED BOMBING it bought time for Britain which Germany couldn't afford due to their land war against the Russians. Hitler didn't see the mistake in time and they canceled their invasion plan. 

Take the gulf war as another example. The prime example of a war won from the air. It wasn't the coalitions ability to sweep Iraq's air Force that won it. It was all of those Aircraft putting ord on targets on the ground.

[RTHolmes]

Air superiority isnt important, its vital. I'm not saying that fighters alone can win a combined ops war, I'm saying you cant win one without them. like BnZ said:

1. Even in this game, if one side has total air superiority, the other side isn't going to take any bases just sending waves of buffs, jabos, and goons to their deaths. The fact that much jabo in this game is either suicide or milk running does lessen air superiority's importance, but not to the point that fighter cover is irrelevant.

as for the BoB, do you honestly think air superiority had nothing to do with it? IIRC Hitler STOPPED bombing airfields and started on London because he thought RAF fields had been degraded enough that he would have more fighters than the RAF in the air to allow the bombers to do their work. sounds alot like air superiority to me...

put it another way, how well do you think the BoB would have gone for Britain if we hadn't upped a single Hurricane or Spitfire?

[Damionte]

I took parts of my post out as I didn't want to veer too far off topic. But to be more precise on the fighters lower casualties point. They do that on both offense and defense. Defensively fighters shoot down bombers which defends your side, allowing you to continue to fight for longer.

In the BoB the British fighters were able to slow down the German advance. They were able to win a battle. But not the war in that way. Britain did not have the resources on her own to take the fight back to Germany in sufficient strength. They were also never able to achieve air superiority during the battle. They simply made it costly for the Germans who then blundered their battle plan. Even then it wasn't so costly that the Germans could not continue the fight. They simply chose to stop, which in turn was another mistake, as on paper they were winning the BoB when they left the field. They just didn't know it at the time.

It was really the axis choice of target's rather than the allies fighters that won the BoB. Had the Germans continued their original tactic of attacking british airfields and manufacturing they would have prevailed. At the same time, had they made the British radar network a priority target rather than one of opportunity they would have been able to range more freely without as much fear of intercept. Radar was relatively new though and wasn't part of the battle plan.

To put this in Aces high terms. If you're taking a base and don't knock out the anti aircraft defenses, (Fighter Hangers/Vehicle Hangers/AAA) you're going to be in for a very tough fight. Knock those out on your first run and you've taken away their ability to defend themselves. (This was germany in the BoB, they failed to knock out Britains ability to defend herself. They essentially dropped their ord on the city but left one fighter/vehicle hanger up. , but no one upped a transport, and as they all circled there the brits were able to keep upping fighters and the germans ran out of steam as they eventually started getting bored and logged off.

Alternately an even better defense for your base is to fly out yourself in your own bombers and knock out the ord and bomber hangers of the attacking base. Then they really can't attack you much at all. You've taken away their ability to wage an offensive war. This was the allied push after the americans joined the war. The bombing campaign started knocking out germany's ability to bring the war forward.

[Damionte]

As for the quote from BnZ, yes actually yes they will win with hordes of bombers attack and JABO planes. Especially in aces high where the supply of attacking planes is unlimited.

You can't stop all of those attackers with even numbers of fighters. In the game the bombers will eventually win that match up. As the fighters will keep running out of places to launch from.

[bongaroo]

Or a couple heavy fighters can pork the ord and now:

 

No bombers!