Author Topic: Pickers and runners please help me understand...  (Read 5333 times)

Offline ink

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2008, 05:05:24 PM »
if you were able to out turn a Spitfire Mk XVI in a P-51D then the Spitfire driver was absolutely clueless and obviously didn't know what they were doing. 

It's like when I am able to out turn Zekes, I don't automatically assume I can because the P-38 is a better turn but rather I was able to because the other guy was clueless. 



ack-ack


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Offline Tr1gg22

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2008, 05:16:18 PM »
So the K4 did his best to use his plane's advantage to kill you but failed.  Then once E states were equal and this favored your plane he didn't "fight your fight" which would have ended in his plane being killed. In the final sequence, you know the k4 is in the area but return to the spit. You either didn't care about getting killed by the k4(which seems doubtful based on the fact that you started this thread) or your SA failed you, allowing the k4 to get a tater gun solution on you. Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
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Offline waystin2

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2008, 05:27:59 PM »
Hello Folks,

Let's go ahead and wrap this post up with a great big....Yawn.

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Offline Motherland

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2008, 05:43:10 PM »
if you were able to out turn a Spitfire Mk XVI in a P-51D then the Spitfire driver was absolutely clueless and obviously didn't know what they were doing. 

It's like when I am able to out turn Zekes, I don't automatically assume I can because the P-38 is a better turn but rather I was able to because the other guy was clueless. 



ack-ack

I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable. That does say something about the performance of the aircraft, though.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2008, 06:17:24 PM »

The faster, less manuverable, later war, rides are interesting because they offer more of a challenge than simply being able to latch onto a guy's six and stay they until he either dies or you get picked. The fact that there are faster planes about that do pick the more maneuverable planes actually facilitates gameplay balance. If there was not this intrinsic liability to the relatively time consumung vulnerability of the "ride the saddle and hammer away" approach it would be practically futile to fly any plane but the top 3-4 flavors of turners. I am sure most will agree there's already sufficient prevalence of Spits, Nikis and Hurricane's in the MA...

Can you clarify this Zaz.  Do you believe that the guys flying the LW uber rides are doing it because those birds are MORE of a challenge?  If it's a guy fighting down low in a 51 I can see that, but if it's a guy hanging above the fight, coming in at light speed, taking a shot and blowing out at light speed, I'm hard pressed to see it.
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Offline saantana

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2008, 06:21:50 PM »
Hehe. Well I'll add my 2 cents since im the biggest cheatfire dw33b, as is always being pointed out to me ;)
In reality when I up my cheatfire and start turning with a 51D I get lazy as I think 'wow 51D turning with me, this guys a noob as usual, no problems here'. Sometimes thought, im both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised that the other guy actually knows what he's doing, and is giving me a harder time than expected! I then come to my senses, realise hes a good stick and treat him accordingly. I saw Vne1 once turning with skyrock, vne in a 51D and skyrock in an F4U1A. Vne1 made it through 3 or turning scissors before I knocked skyrock off his six. My point is, he kept it up for around 4 turns, which I thought was very skillfull!
I once recall diving on a spit16 me in the same plane, with MEGA E advantage. I chopped throttle on the dive to give myself some time. He pointed his plane down just when I made my shot, I tried to adjust and blew my E as I did it. I was so frustrated I reversed vertically still in chopped throttle, and in a moments notice the sixteen was on my six. 4 to 5 minutes later I was dead. It was JAXXO  :rock
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2008, 06:34:47 PM »
I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable. That does say something about the performance of the aircraft, though.

It says nothing about plane performance but speaks volumes about pilot abilities. 

Using my example of out turning a Zeke in a P-38, how does that say something about plane performance? 


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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2008, 07:18:16 PM »
Can you clarify this Zaz.  Do you believe that the guys flying the LW uber rides are doing it because those birds are MORE of a challenge?  If it's a guy fighting down low in a 51 I can see that, but if it's a guy hanging above the fight, coming in at light speed, taking a shot and blowing out at light speed, I'm hard pressed to see it.

What I am saying is, there is no more straightforward, one-dimensionally simplistic approach to air combat than selecting an enemy and latching onto him in a grab-ass merry-go-round until one of you is dead, either by each other's hand or the hand of another. Also, there are planes that make this mode of play even more easy and straightforward, planes like the Spit, Niki, Zeke, Hurricane etc. To select and succeed with a plane that is not so straightforward, a plane that cannot automatically gain angles against most others simply by virtue of its hardcoded turnrate parameters, is invariably more complex and potentially interesting. A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to  latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).

I am by no means advocating a "one pass and haul ass" approach with a poor turner under any and all circumstances. What I am saying is there is often a lot of finesse required to tactically engage, but at the same time, keep at arms length a much more maneuverable plane, refusing to play his game then ultimately bring him down. Sometimes that will definitely mean taking a fleeting high deflection shot then  consolidating energy and/or position, sometimes that will absolutely mean quickly looping over and tenaciously boring down on him without hesitation before he can recover his position. Excellent timing and the art of knowing how and especially when to do these things is the difference between success or failure with very little margin for error. If you play too timidly you will not kill effectively or efficiently, play too loose and you get into the turner's game and against a comparably skilled opponent the hardcoded parameters of the aircraft will determine the result 9 out of 10 times (Per AKAK's P38 vs. Zeke example). This is quite a bit more complex than just selecting a plane and fixating on him with an uber-turner until you kill it, die by it, or get picked by a 3rd party.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 09:37:33 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Steve

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2008, 08:23:31 PM »
I never said that the P51 nor the Ta152 could out turn the Spitfire Mk16- but under the right circumstances, particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill, it's doable.

Out turning a zeke in a goon is doable "particularly with a large enough gap in pilot skill".      :rolleyes:
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Offline Yenny

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2008, 08:51:51 PM »
^_^ K4 is horrible BnZmer plane! it's better off tnbing imo. I dunno sounds like he's experimenting w/ bnzmnig. When I do BnZ sorties, I usually don't go for the kill unless I know it's 80% chance I will take 1 or 2 down in 1 pass.
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Offline olskool2

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2008, 10:37:40 PM »
There's a lot more to TnB than latching onto someone's six as easily as you put it Zazen. There's also skill required to effectively E fight any plane. The problem is the 500mph pickers that run out of icon range on the first reversal, while hiding under the "it's my plane's advantage" excuse for not losing their cartoon plane.

Imagine if your favorite fullback run a safety in to not get tackled, just because he can run faster.

Offline Scca

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2008, 10:37:51 PM »
So the K4 did his best to use his plane's advantage to kill you but failed.  Then once E states were equal and this favored your plane he didn't "fight your fight" which would have ended in his plane being killed. In the final sequence, you know the k4 is in the area but return to the spit. You either didn't care about getting killed by the k4(which seems doubtful based on the fact that you started this thread) or your SA failed you, allowing the k4 to get a tater gun solution on you. Perhaps you should fly in the "all co-alt spit only arena."
Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.

Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat?  My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun.  I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score.  Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.  

I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose.  Honestly, if it were like that, who would play?  How would that game play be? Think about it..
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2008, 10:44:58 PM »
 My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

Your wording shows it's not your desire to understand someone's different style of playing in any way. It's just a rant in disguise.

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Offline moot

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2008, 11:02:57 PM »
Or he's ranting on what he sees as nonsense, and is asking if anyone would show him what he's missing to make sense of the nonsense.
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Offline Tr1gg22

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Re: Pickers and runners please help me understand...
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2008, 11:13:05 PM »
Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.

Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat?  My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun.  I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score.  Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them. 

I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose.  Honestly, if it were like that, who would play?  How would that game play be? Think about it..
join all the other people who made this same thread :rofl Get over it people will fly the way they want..Runnin away is a lot of peoples tactics so they can come back and kill U because maybe u forgot to take ur ridillin for ur ADD..Why should they turn with ur superior spit turny bird plane? SO u can beat em?Maybe they should use there planes strengths and not get lured into ur planes strengths.U no there is a strategy to this game.Its not just turning ur airplane as sharp as it goes in circles all day just hoping urs turns sharper :rofl Get over it! Learn how to fly!!
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