Author Topic: Tips on the P-38L  (Read 1818 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2008, 04:38:07 PM »
Fight in the vertical.

Keep your speed up.

Pop your dive flaps in any extended dive.

Full elevator trim up in any turn fight, though you can say this about any plane.

Use flaps liberally if you get into a turnfight, but don't be stupid trying to turnfight Zekes and Hurris..etc.

Be prepared to be shot down alot.  :aok


There are alot better people to comment on this than me. I'd advise you look up Murdr or AKAK about flying the 38.


Tell me you're joking.   

Keep in mind 99% of the time (in AH since 2002) I never have deployed flaps.   I use throttle manipulation instead, as it suits my "crappy style".   I realize I'm not a "cartoon ace and never will be".   But, if you're in an "extended dive", wouldn't it be MORE EFFECTIVE to cut the engine, or if that is too gamey, then chop throttle?   

Full elevator trim up in any turnfight?   Huh?    :confused:    Again, I use throttle manipulation instead of flaps.   I don't even bother with elevators, unless I'm compressed in a 38 (rare).   

As for "not turnfighting Zeke's, etc", as most rides go, you'd be surprised on how you can rack up kills on the "elite turners" in a "crappy turning ride."   Just the sight of someone relatively hanging with a Zeke, per se, is enough to cause them to make a mistake.   I'd be a millionaire if I got a nickel that happened.   

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2008, 04:46:01 PM »
Then can someone explain to ME why I just shouldn't leave combat trim on the entire time in a fight? I keep hearing about how no one uses it and prefers to trim their own plane, but apparently I'm doing it entirely wrong.

Basically, Combat Trim negates the effects of the flaps, especially the dive flap.


ack-ack
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Offline DaveJ

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2008, 06:30:24 PM »
Basically, Combat Trim negates the effects of the flaps, especially the dive flap.


ack-ack

So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?
~DaveyJ~
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2008, 06:38:39 PM »
So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?

I thought you were this Sierra Hotel Cartoon Ace according to other threads?   :devil   I'll come Bish tonight and you can join my plane for a couple of hops and I can show you some stuff.   

You should have asked sooner.   
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Offline DaveJ

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2008, 06:49:59 PM »
I thought you were this Sierra Hotel Cartoon Ace according to other threads?   :devil   I'll come Bish tonight and you can join my plane for a couple of hops and I can show you some stuff.   

You should have asked sooner.   

I used to fly with Pawz alot when he was on regularly, and he said when he did his merge he did full elevator trim up for the turn fight. I took his word on it and have been doing that since.

I've never really had a problem with it except for low speed front shots flying straight when the plane is bouncing all round. I always thought it helped the plane nose around a bit better and hang in the vertical for longer.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 06:51:52 PM by DaveJ »
~DaveyJ~
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2008, 06:57:59 PM »
So I'm supposed to turn combat trim off and do nothing then?

Turn it off and use manual trim to trim the aircraft flight controls. 


ack-ack
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Offline Banshee7

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2008, 08:00:18 PM »
Dont listen to what he says...the 38L is so much sexier..... :rock

But the J is soooooooo much sexier than the L
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2008, 08:24:14 PM »
But the J is soooooooo much sexier than the L

Only if you use the 479th skin.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2008, 11:33:24 PM »
Only if you use the 479th skin.


ack-ack

G still looks best, but the 38Js didn;t look bad tonite :)
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Offline FireDragon

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2008, 11:36:36 PM »
So if combat trim negates use of flaps.. manualy triming plane will allow u to acctually use the flaps..  is this only in the 38 or all planes?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2008, 05:10:13 AM »
So if combat trim negates use of flaps.. manualy triming plane will allow u to acctually use the flaps..  is this only in the 38 or all planes?


Any plane that is flap dependent, like the P-38 and Ki-84. 



ack-ack
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Offline caldera

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2008, 10:37:21 AM »

Any plane that is flap dependent, like the P-38 and Ki-84. 



ack-ack



Thank you ack-ack! I've been flying the Ki-84 for over a year and still can't use the flaps very often. Usually i have to be under 150 to even bring them down. I've never had combat trim off. Guess i have to relearn to fly.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2008, 12:32:07 PM »
Combat trim does automatically to a limited extent what you would do to trim the plane manually. It doesn't work too well at extreme speeds (slow OR fast) or angles of attack, however. I trim manually most of the time, but if I need to ensure neutral trim in an instant (such as to stabilize for gunnery or aiming ordinance) I'll turn it on for a few seconds then generally turn it back off again when I no longer need it. It's valuable because you could be crabbing sideways and not realize it due to the lack of sensory input we get in the game.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2008, 01:35:58 PM »
Yikes... Some great tips in this thread and not just for you 38 studs.  AKAK,  I know you mention combat trim as it relates to 38 and Ki-84.  In 51's, in any mid to slow turn fighting the combat trim needs to be off. I would think this applies to all planes but I am not proficient enough in many of them to declare this with authority.

On top of ropes when you are trying to hang on your prop, having combat trim on will put you in a stall/spin every time, sometimes a nasty, inverted flat spin.  With CT off and a couple of notches of flaps, you can really hang the plane.

OTOH combat trim is nice to have on at mid to high speeds when you are not turning aggressively. 

CT is  an interesting topic to me.. if YMMV applies, I'd like to hear about it.    :)
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tips on the P-38L
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2008, 03:50:45 PM »
Then can someone explain to ME why I just shouldn't leave combat trim on the entire time in a fight? I keep hearing about how no one uses it and prefers to trim their own plane, but apparently I'm doing it entirely wrong.

You CAN leave CT on during the whole fight.  It does a pretty good job of trimming the plane in the "normal" range of speeds.  However, at high or low speeds, "dirty" configurations (flaps or gear deployed, or an off-center DT), or flight attitudes other than level and straight, it has some quirks that could cause it to be seen as a "handicap".  CT works very well for basic flying, but not so great for more drastic flight attitudes and maneuvers.

It basically trims the plane (or tries to) so that at whatever direction you point the plane, the trims try to compensate and minimize the required deflection of the stick from neutral. 

For example, if you go into a prolonged dive at a given trim setting, without adjusting the trim, as speed builds your nose would have a tendency to come up.  If you didn't dial in some down elevator trim, you'd be required to hold the stick forward to maintain your dive angle.  In AH, dialing in the down trim happens automatically with the CT.  As your speed builds in the dive, more and more down trim is added until it maxes out at full down trim.  This is nice in the dive, because you don't need to hold the stick forward as much, but not so nice when your trying to pull out of the dive.  In this case, your trying to pull up, but the trim is fully down!  See the problem?  This is what most people think of as "compression", but really it isn't.

Keep in mind too that "more" isn't necessarily "better" in terms of control surface movement either.  Imagine if we could deflect our elevator fully 90 degrees up.  How effective would that be?  What if we could go beyond that, so the elevator actually pointed forward?

It doesn't take long for people to realize that using manual up trim makes dive recovery easier.  However, they often assume it helps for the wrong reason, and then confusion sets in.  The assumption is that it helps because it seems to give additional up elevator.  It doesn't!  It gives less down elevator trim!  Visually, it has the same effect, but in reality it's not the same thing.

It's funny you mention dialing in full up elevator for turn fights.  That's "funny", because that's basically what the auto CT will do eventually too.  You're basically just rushing to handicap yourself in the same manner as the CT would.

As speed builds, CT dials in down elevator trim to minimize your required stick inputs to maintain the dive.  Guess what it does as speed drops... 

In reality, as your speed drops, your nose would feel "heavier", and start to drop.  More "back" force on the stick would be required to hold the nose up.  In its goal to minimize your work, CT dials in more and more up elevator as you slow down, until it maxes out at full up as you near stall speed.  Stall speed and full up elevator is a great way to get in trouble...  Also, if you go full down elevator at this point to reverse, dive out, or whatever, CT still has full up trim, and is effectively "fighting" you.

Especially in the last example, the CT could be seen as costing you E. The up elevator trim is a handicap at that point, whether it's from CT, or done by you on purpose.  Vertical maneuvers (especially ropes) can benefit from having CT disabled.

Another example- roll inverted, and maintain inverted flight.  You'll be forced to use LOTS of down elevator, especially as speed drops.  What does CT do to help?  It dials in UP elevator, which is exactly the "wrong" input!  Ever fly inverted during a fight?  Or at least "not level"?  Is CT helping you?

How 'bout landing?  Notice as you chop the throttle and slow down you need a fair amount of left aileron.  Why?  Not because the plane wants to roll right...  Because the CT is still trimming for the left torque of the engine, which is now gone because you've reduced throttle...

Flap use causes CT to do some odd things too.  Normally I'd expect a bit of down elevator trim as I drop a notch, CT puts in some up instead...  CT is off in my plane when the flaps get dropped.

Understanding how the CT works is a requirement to understanding how it doesn't always benefit you.  It isn't perfect, nor is it terrible.  It helps here, and hurts there.  So does Manual Trim.  Using either incorrectly is a handicap.  Failing to utilize them both is a handicap (IMO).  Simply dialing in full up for a turn fight isn't a beneficial, correct use of manual trim, at least IMO.

I use both.  I have it disabled, but have it mapped to a thumb button so that I can have it on/off when I want it.  Manually trimming turns it off as well.  I do best with it OFF by default, and have it accessible when I "ask" for it.

I use CT for ALL of my "normal" flying.  Back and forth between bases, and "easy" maneuvering and fighting.  I've developed a feel for where I'm better off with it, or without it.  When my flying begins to deviate from "normal", I turn it off.  When it returns to normal, I turn it back on.  A two-minute fight may see it on/off 10 times.  That's just how I do it...  YMMV

BTW, I don't fly 38's much, so this post is more about CT in general.  That said, the 38 is a good, if not great, plane to practice some manual trim with, due to it's low torque.

MtnMan
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 04:02:39 PM by mtnman »
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