Author Topic: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled  (Read 2475 times)

Offline 63tb

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Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« on: July 14, 2008, 07:59:34 PM »
Folks,

I was watching Top Gear and they mentioned that a Challenger II tank had a rifled main gun that "can actually hit something" unlike smooth bore American tanks that can "hit something over there".

I was surprised at this. I thought all tank guns are rifled. Do any other tanks use smooth bore main guns? Why would you use a smooth bore?

63tb

Offline Hornet33

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 08:09:42 PM »
The M1A1, Leoperd II, and Leclerk all use a 120mm smooth bore cannon. In fact the M1A1 cannon is of German design originaly for the Leoperd II. The Challenger is the only other tank on the planet in the same class as the others that uses a rifled cannon. If I'm not mistaken the Russian T-72-80-90 series tanks all use a smooth bore 125mm cannon as well.

The smooth bore is better for firing SABOT rounds with since the penetrator is nothing more than a large dart that destroys the target with kinetic energy instead of explosives. If you spin a SABOT round it's actually not as acurate.
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Offline Latrobe

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 08:10:01 PM »
The british use the Rifled bore and have better accuracy than most other tanks, but they lack higher velocity because of it. I think mostly every other country uses smooth bore because it gives you better penetration (because of higher velocity), but with a lack of accuracy compared to rifled. The American M1 Abrams though is just so technologically advanced I thinks its accurate enough to hit anything the Challenger I and II can.


Though I'm no expert I could be wrong with some of this info.

Offline Maverick

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 10:10:55 PM »
This is kind of silly. If you really want to see what the accuracy capability of the smooth bore tank cannon you just might want to read the description of the 73 Easting battle in GW1. Those are AFAIK the longest ranged engagements on the battlefield for tanks. The range was in excess of 3700 meters and the hit ratio was in excess of 90%. It was also a killing range for the gun.

FWIW the main gun battle sight range of the 105mm tank round (sabot) on the M60 tank was 1600 to 1800 meters and the range you could expect a kill or penetration was 1200 meters assuming the target was the front of a soviet T72. The later M60A3 with the gun upgrades could expect to hit out past that range easily but the 105 doesn't have the penetration capability of the 120mm.

With the proper ammo, targeting system and gun, the smooth-bore gets more velocity, flatter trajectory and shorter flight time than a rifled bore. It also doesn't burn out near as fast either. It will certainly do the job at a farther range than will the rifled bore as has been demonstrated.
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Offline 63tb

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 10:22:24 PM »
What gives the smooth bore round its stability? Wasn't that the advantage of rifling?

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Offline Maverick

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 10:32:09 PM »
The sabot round in the 120 is fin stabilized. It looks kind of like a stubby crossbow bolt. A very heavy one.
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Offline Jester

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 11:13:45 PM »
MK.735 SABOT ROUND from the 120mm Gun on the M1A2


What the SABOT Round Looks like:


Projectile Dart leaving the SABOT casing after firing:

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Offline ZetaNine

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 11:26:55 PM »
one point of contention that I have always has when it comes to military weapons demonstration films...is that they always show the target at impact....large explosion and all....but they rarely focus on the what the target looks like when the smoke clears...

that...and...does anyone have any filmed footage/images of sabot penetrations...and the resulting carnage inside the vehicle?

Offline MORAY37

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 03:05:38 AM »
The british use the Rifled bore and have better accuracy than most other tanks, but they lack higher velocity because of it. I think mostly every other country uses smooth bore because it gives you better penetration (because of higher velocity), but with a lack of accuracy compared to rifled. The American M1 Abrams though is just so technologically advanced I thinks its accurate enough to hit anything the Challenger I and II can.


Though I'm no expert I could be wrong with some of this info.


Respectfully, I would disagree.  Challenger 2 is probably the best all round tank in existence, currently.  It was the only armored vehicle in both gulf wars to not lose a single tank to enemy fire.  (in one engagement an Iraqi AT missile hit one dead on, only blowing off the gunner's sight.  The tank drove away and was back in action in 4 hours.  There are also repeated examples of the Challenger 2 taking dozens of hits from man portable AT weapons and figting on.)

The Challenger also has the longest confirmed kill of another tank..... 5,100 meters.  Abrams? Forget about it after 2000 meters....it's not hitting.

The only thing that doesn't make it better than the M1a2 is it was only manufactured in 265 examples. 
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 11:14:49 AM »
Respectfully, what makes you think you have any clue about this?  Your statements are clearly contradicted by observable fact.






Respectfully, I would disagree.  Challenger 2 is probably the best all round tank in existence, currently.  It was the only armored vehicle in both gulf wars to not lose a single tank to enemy fire.  (in one engagement an Iraqi AT missile hit one dead on, only blowing off the gunner's sight.  The tank drove away and was back in action in 4 hours.  There are also repeated examples of the Challenger 2 taking dozens of hits from man portable AT weapons and figting on.)

The Challenger also has the longest confirmed kill of another tank..... 5,100 meters.  Abrams? Forget about it after 2000 meters....it's not hitting.

The only thing that doesn't make it better than the M1a2 is it was only manufactured in 265 examples. 

Offline slipknot

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 11:29:38 AM »
Top Gear is a fun show, but they often substitute humorous proclaimations for facts. If they can do it at the expense of an American machine, they will. Jeremy Clarkson, for all his talent, probably knows as much about modern weaponary as I do about high end women's footwear.

Flaunting this ignorance in a confident and mocking tone, and putting the British above the Americans in the process, is better than drugs for him. He does the same thing when comparing cars, except that he actually knows a thing or two about cars. Here it's just absurd.

The Americans, as well as the Russians and whoever else uses sooth bore technology does so for a reason--and these reasons were mentioned already. Departing from the rifled barrel technology would not have been done on a whim. Smoothbore guns fire the sabot round, which requires no rifling--as mentioned. They also fire actively guided munitions, which can autocorrect their trajectory.

The concept of gyroscopic stabilization is in its 3rd century, and it should come as no surprise that new technologies are being implemented to improve upon it. Just because the Brits are sticking to a method that's older than the United States doesn't mean they're doing it right.

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 11:38:29 AM »
Yeah, I think Mavs post has more accuracy then morays...... Mav has some inside knowledge!  :D

Offline thrila

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 12:12:21 PM »
More importantly, the challenger comes with tea making facilities as standard.
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 12:18:13 PM »
Rifled gun was requirement due to older types of ammo Brits wanted to use with Challenger.
Currently, Challenger is undergoing several update programs, among others, rifled guns are going to be replaced by smooth bore guns.


Quote from: Janes
The Challenger Lethality Improvement Programme (CLIP),
which includes the replacement of the current 120 mm L30 series rifled tank gun with a 120 mm L/55 smoothbore gun, will be rolled into the C2 CSP. The FSG has been funding CLIP for several years, and the first unmanned firing of the weapon installed in a Challenger 2 MBT took place in early 2006.

Source: http://www.janes.com/news/defence/systems/jdw/jdw070525_1_n.shtml

Offline 68Wooley

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Re: Modern tank cannons - smooth vs rifled
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 12:38:13 PM »
Rifled gun was requirement due to older types of ammo Brits wanted to use with Challenger.
Currently, Challenger is undergoing several update programs, among others, rifled guns are going to be replaced by smooth bore guns.


Source: http://www.janes.com/news/defence/systems/jdw/jdw070525_1_n.shtml

Beat me to it. The 120mm A30 cannon on Challenger 2 can fire HESH rounds which have a longer range than its APFSDS round. The HESH round is also better when you want to blow stuff like buildings up rather than turn the contents of an armoured vehicle to mush.

To be honest, you could argue the relative merits of Challenger 2, Leopard 2, Le Clerk and Abrams all day and not reach consensus - they're all good, evenly matched tanks. However, in the interests of adding a bit of nationalistic jingoism and keeping the thread interesting , I'll say this:

1. The only thing to have ever killed a Challenger is err, another Challenger. This is relatively unique in the British army. Traditionally it is the US Air Force that destroys our armoured vehicles.

2. The Abrams, like the M60 before it, originally used a British Gun. It now uses a Geman gun. It also uses armour developed by the British. Which begs the question - isn't the M1 really just a European tank with a gas-guzzling turbine engine stuck in the back?

 :noid