Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[Zazen13]

We'll have to agree on disagreeing.

Spraying is always sign of desperation, either in DA or in MA. If a guy is spraying in DA he'll do the same in MA.

Maybe some are unloading ammo in DA before merge, but I have rarely seen a decent stick spraying in a duel.

We can agree to disagree...

[Vudak]

I think the slower you are the more important E management becomes. This is equally valid for MA an DA. It is easy to manage E when you have loads of it. It gets trickier when you have almost none.

Simply because shooting (taking extra lead to aim) will spoil your angles and if you miss, you'll most likely be shot in the next turn. From my personal experience, I take shots in MA I'd never take in a duel.

I agree with both points...  Just to add a few thoughts...

Point #1 - Energy still matters very much so in an angles fight, as certain angles simply cannot be obtained with it, or without it.  It's just that it's not so apparent as a typical MA fight where one party often starts with a noticeable advantage.

Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling.  Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver.  A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable...  If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.

Energy goes both ways...  And dispite popular thought, having a surplus is not *always* a good thing, by any means.  It is at times, sure.

Point #2 - I think most guys who've spent a lot of time dueling will admit that a good portion of the times they were killed was right after they blew a shot they thought they had.  Dueling's one of the best ways to learn there are some shots even more dangerous to oneself than a HO

[Zazen13]

Aww hogwash.  Since it's 1v1 you can hold the trigger down any time you think you might have a gun solution on your enemy. Since there will be no other combat in the flight, there's no need to conserve ammo. 

Exactly...

[2bighorn]

Exactly...

Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).

[Zazen13]

Successfully judging a person's energy state pre-merge is a *huge* part of dueling.  Whereas you might see people just using a few basic moves, Zazen, you can bet your butt they're deliberately coming in at different speeds for the same maneuver.  A good dueler needs to mix it up and be unpredictable...  If they can't do that, they'll be beat the same way over and over again.

No doubt there, Vudak. But, whether the relative pre-merge energy is potential (alt) or actual (speed) is largely semantics assuming they both adhered to the 5k hard-cap. Naturally, the merge move will be modified accordingly to compensate for the apparent degree the opponent has retained their potential E or converted it into speed. But, progressively, as a duel wears on and E is exhausted as it is converted to angles there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage, you no longer have the E needed to create angles alone. The closer E states are the greater the importance of angles. The opposite is true, the greater the energy disparity the less important angles are as they are easily created. So, Co-Alt/Co-E fights begin biased toward angles fighting vs. E fighting intrinsically, the lower the E states the more true this becomes as options to convert energy to a positional advantage are restricted in an ever-tightening noose.

Think of this another way, this is a very typical MA example.. A less maneuverable plane can temporarily outmaneuver a more maneuverable plane if he has sufficient energy to convert to angles for a  shot. The closer their relative E states the more the angles fighter will be able to counter the angles created by his opponent through energy conversion. Once their E states are identical, assuming there's very little separation, the energy fighter can no longer create an angle sufficient to outmaneuver the angles fighter, if he tries he will A) Give up shot; B) Put himself at an energy disadvantage vs. a more maneuverable plane, which is all but certain death.

[Zazen13]

Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).

Ahhh, I see where you're not understanding. Why do you think shooting and maneuvering are mutually exclusive? Do you stop pulling your stick when you press the trigger?

The kind of spraying I'm talking about are fleeting crossing shots, where you are completely out-of-plane with your opponent as he crosses in front of you, it's the complete opposite of an in-plane tracking shot. This happens when you are both maneuvering aggressively, especially after a nose to nose merge. These are the kind of shots that people will take in a duel more often and with greater gusto, ammunition wise, than they typically would in the MA. They'll throw a hose up there in anticipation of the enemy crossing in front of him. When it's done it looks more like you're throwing up a stream that he runs into rather than you "hitting him" directly with a shot.

[Vudak]

In regards to the shooting, I think I see what you're saying, Zazen, but I have to say that it hasn't been my experience in the DA...  People pretty much shoot at me when I expect them to, and if they don't, they're either being polite or have a good reason not to.

I don't run into many situations where a guy is using a firehose or just laying on throughout a turn hoping to catch me...

As far as fleeting cross shots...  I might not be completely understanding you there, but I'm assuming you're talking about 90* or thereabouts deflections, split second chances...  Not only will I fire each time in the MA for those shots, but often they're the only ones available to me when I'm knife fighting a better turning plane...  They are the shot I am looking for.  If I was able to hit them more often I'd be much more successful

I think you're talking about one of the things that could happen moreso than one of the things that usually does.

[Zazen13]

I think I posted the answer to that, in reply to bighorn,  while you were writing, read the most recent post above...

[2bighorn]

But, progressively, as a duel wears on and E is exhausted as it is converted to angles there's a point it becomes a pure stallfight, then there is no E to manage, you no longer have the E needed to create angles alone. The closer E states are the greater the importance of angles.

a) to gain angles you need to maneuver
b) to maneuver you need E
c) If you ever stuck in prolonged rolling scissors you'll understand importance of managing E at or near stall speeds.
d) stall fighting is common in all arenas

Why do you think shooting and maneuvering are mutually exclusive?

They aren't. I'm just saying one leads to another.

Do you stop pulling your stick when you press the trigger?

You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area. Takes some time as well for a solid kill burst (depends on armament).

The kind of spraying I'm talking about are fleeting crossing shots, where you are completely out of plane with your opponent as he crosses in front of you.

You don't want to pass in front of the bandit in any fight. And reverse is true, if opponent is passing in front of you, he usually dies. Either you aim or you spray. DA is no different in that regard.

These are the kind of shots that people will take in a duel more often and with greater gusto, ammunition wise, they they would in the MA. They'll throw a hose up there in anticipation of the enemy about to cross in front of him.

Instead of answering myself, I'll quote Vudak: "I think most guys who've spent a lot of time dueling will admit that a good portion of the times they were killed was right after they blew a shot they thought they had.  Dueling's one of the best ways to learn there are some shots even more dangerous to oneself than a HO".

When it's done it looks more like you're throwing up a stream that he runs into than you "hitting him" with a shot.

That's what we call deflection shooting.

[Vudak]

No I read that one, it's just that it hasn't been my experience...  I haven't run into many firehose guys in the DA.  I can hear/see when they're shooting and it is generally short bursts.

Actually my latest post was in response to your last one specifically, so if I'm completely misunderstanding it, do tell

(I've got an hour left at work and the day is slow, I'm game for some edumacation )

[Zazen13]

a
You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area. Takes some time as well for a solid kill burst (depends on armament).

You don't want to pass in front of the bandit in any fight. And reverse is true, if opponent is passing in front of you, he usually dies. Either you aim or you spray. DA is no different in that regard.


.

You release pressure on the stick when you shoot? I have never done that, if you do that you will under-lead, assuming you were at the correct lead to begin with. The only time I could see doing that would be if your are in pure lead pursuit and have to relax the stick to let the bandit "catch-up" to the deflection angle. Is that what you mean?

I have been in about 9,872,638 fights and filmed about 23,789,203 fights I wasn't directly involved in. In almost every one of those fights that were the result of a nose to nose merge there were susequent mini re-merges at an oblique angle resulting in at least one out-of-plane crossing shot opportunity prior to the fight either being decided or devolving into mostly in-plane maneuvering and tracking shots.

[Zazen13]

As far as fleeting cross shots...  I might not be completely understanding you there, but I'm assuming you're talking about 90* or thereabouts deflections, split second chances...  Not only will I fire each time in the MA for those shots, but often they're the only ones available to me when I'm knife fighting a better turning plane...  They are the shot I am looking for.  If I was able to hit them more often I'd be much more successful

That's exactly what I'm talking about...

[Steve]

Yep, there's no need to conserve ammo, but every time you spray you're wasting time and you'll be late into the next maneuver and that's the last thing you want in a duel (or in any fight for that matter).

Certainly the shooter runs that risk. OTOH the shooter is more likely to take low % shots in the DA than the MA because he only has one fight to consider. I've been in the DA, I know this to be fact.  I'm not saying they would hold teh trigger down the whole fight, but they are more likely to take shots in the DA that they might let go in the MA.  Again, they  have only one enemy plane to consider.

I'm not sayin the DA doesn't require skill  but the MA requires a wider range of skills applied to a much more vast scenario.  For instance ,can anyone reasonably argue that SA plays as large a role in the DA that it does in the MA?

[Steve]

You unload stick pressure a bit at high Gs, otherwise rounds will be spread over too large area.

I don't, and never have done this.

[Vudak]

I'm not saying they would hold teh trigger down the whole fight, but they are more likely to take shots in the DA that they might let go in the MA.  Again, they  have only one enemy plane to consider.

I find the opposite to be true, for much the same reasons.  In the MA, I'm usually not fighting one guy at a time...  If I have the slightest chance of hitting one of them, I'm taking it...

In the DA I only have one guy to worry about and through bad results I've had drilled into my head that pressing for a certain shot at a certain time will wind up badly for me...  In the MA, that's often not true due to quality of opponent and number of opponents, etc.