Battle of Britain II

[CAP1]

http://www.johndclare.net/wwii6.htm
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this is a bit of an interesting read./......

http://www.johndclare.net/wwii_Ready_for_War.htm

[Furball]

http://www.johndclare.net/wwii6.htm
.
this is a bit of an interesting read./......

I think i may have misunderstood your original post, i thought you were referring to the What If scenario...

Anyways, Germany was losing far too many aircraft to have won the first battle, the RAF was too strong at the end of it and the onset of winter was coming.

This is the best page on the battle IMO: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/calendar.html

[CAP1]

That is rubbish, the RAF had plenty of experience by that point, they had been in the war since 1939 and had progressively improved everything.  We were not saved by the United States at all, it is debatable whether the British could have invaded mainland Europe on their own, but certainly was not saved.  The RAF saved Britain, and by doing that, enabled Britain to be free and made the liberation of Europe possible.  A lot is owed to all those men from all those countries that fought in the BoB.

In May 1942 Bomber Command launched their first 1,000 bomber raid.  The US 8th Air Force began operations some two months later?  Seems strange to me that the entry of the USA saved Britain...

well, my main point was that through attrition, the raf pilots going up to protect the country were very low time. the raf did an incredible job doing what they did....and i wasn't trying to take away from that.

and, yes, we all do owe TONS to all of the men and women that fought for our freedoms back then.........

[CAP1]

I think i may have misunderstood your original post, i thought you were referring to the What If scenario...

Anyways, Germany was losing far too many aircraft to have won the first battle, the RAF was too strong at the end of it and the onset of winter was coming.

This is the best page on the battle IMO: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/calendar.html

understood.....i don't put anyone down that fought for tha allies back then.....well...maybe france

but serioously, if you took any offense to what i had previously posted, none was intended.....

someone else mentioned there's a reason we don't play the "what if" game.......think he was right

[Furball]

understood.....i don't put anyone down that fought for tha allies back then.....well...maybe france

but serioously, if you took any offense to what i had previously posted, none was intended.....

someone else mentioned there's a reason we don't play the "what if" game.......think he was right

I am not at all offended, just disagree with what you had posted 

[Badboy]

So who would win
everybody knows the outcome of the Battle of Britain in August 1940.  But if it wasn't for Hitler switching his attention to Russia in 1941 there would have been a round 2.  So here is my question, and point of discussion: if a second Battle of Britain commenced in the summer of 1941 would the Germans have won?

Nope, for the following reasons:

• In the Air, Germany was unable to achieve air superiority in 1940 even with vastly superior numbers, and it is very doubtful they would have won even if they had not made the mistakes we are aware of in retrospect, despite the opinion of some authors that they might have. For example, even if the attacks against airfields had been sustained, the solution was simply to move the aircraft to airfields that were out of range, or use smaller more dispersed grass airfields. It is unlikely that the RAF could ever have been grounded, but that did make for more dramatic reading. If they couldn't do it in 1940, they wouldn't have been able to in 1941 when the odds were much better
• On land, in 1940 Britain was still recovering from Dunkirk and was ill prepared to defend against an invasion with battle weary troops who were poorly equipped in comparison. If an invasion was still a real threat by 1941 the defences would have been much better prepared, so I believe that 1940 was the best and probably the only chance for success
• At sea, a Factor often overlooked is the role of the Royal Navy in the event of an attempted sea crossing, many believe that wouldn't have been possible in 1940, and nothing changed in that respect by 1941, the home fleet was still an impressive and formidable obstacle
• Logistically, there is also the almost laughable detailed plans for operation sealion, sending troops across the channel in canal barges would never succeed, not in 1940, not ever, unless the German plan was simply to drown as many of their own troops as possible. That aspect alone is enough to suggest that the invasion was only ever a bluff, intended to bring England to the peace table so that Hitler was free to invade Russia, my opinion is that the Germans really believed that if they could obtain air superiority, and exclude the Royal Navy by laying mines, they could make the crossing. If it had ever got that far I'm sure it would have been a huge and grand disaster because those barges were absolutely not sea worthy, and particularly unsuitable for conditions in the channel.
• Also, by June 1941 Germany had launched operation Barbarossa with the invasion of Russia, so the Luftwaffe would have been divided between two fronts, an entirely untenable situation that would have doomed a second attempt to failure

Those are just a few suggestions for why a second attempt might not have succeeded one year later.

Badboy

[Badboy]

the 2 biggest things that saved england then, was the united states, and the fact that hitler turned his attention away from them.

Any significant help from the USA only came after the Battle of Britain had already been decided, and there is some question whether that help would have come at all if the Battle of Britain had not been won. Public opinion in the USA at the time was strongly in favour of maintaining neutrality, particularly when most Americans (and the rest of the world) at that time believed England was a lost cause. It was only the victory that swayed the mood of the American people to support Britain in terms of materials and supplies, and it took the attack on Pearl Harbor 16 months later to clinch full hearted support.

Badboy   

[Vudak]

 the 2 biggest things that saved england then, was the united states, and the fact that hitler turned his attention away from them.

I'm personally of the opinion that the British Empire saved the United States...  (I'm an American, by the way).

Germany came pretty darn close to knocking off two of world's greatest Empire's at the time (British and Russian).  It took just about everything both those nations had, plus the United States, and a host of smaller but still important nations to finally defeat them.

Imagine if they were able to divide and conquer?  It's a scary thought.

Thank you, British Empire and Churchill 

[SkyRock]

We were not saved by the United States at all, it is debatable whether the British could have invaded mainland Europe on their own, but certainly was not saved. 

LMAO, with all due respect:

"Winston Churchill once wrote, '... the only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril'. Churchill could not have been more correct.
The importance of the threat posed by German submarines (the 'Unterseeboot') during World War Two to the Atlantic lifeline(they don't call it the Atlantic Lifeline for nothing, US is on other side of Atlantic, hee hee), for which Britain depended on for food and supplies(from US), could have had dire consequences had they succeeded, and would undoubtedly led to the defeat of Britain."   Destroyer for Bases deal  September 1940  Washington D.C. and London  U.S. transfers 50 old destroyers to Britain in exchange for use of eight British Atlantic bases. 
Lend-Lease plan  November 1940  Washington D.C.  U.S. would "lend" military equipment to cash-strapped Britain.  Britain was already on rations at begining of 1940 for food, clothing, and other essentials.



"A total of $50.1 billion (equivalent to nearly $700 billion at 2007 prices) worth of supplies were shipped: $31.4 billion to Britain"   That's 420 billion to britain by 2007 prices  *note  Britain paid in full recently



On a lighter side - "BBC News says Britain still owes the United States $4.4 billion -- the equivalent of about $79 billion today -- from World War I. "

I think you are a little off base with the statement I quoted of you.  I like the British and admire them deeply for their resolve during the war.  Churchill is one of my alltime fav leaders.  But to say that Britain could have invaded Europe by themselves with no help from US is complete and utter rubbish!  Maybe you need to talk to some of those(alive at the time) who were sustained by US goods during the first two years of the war, not to mention throughout '42-'45. 

[CAP1]

I'm personally of the opinion that the British Empire saved the United States...  (I'm an American, by the way).

Germany came pretty darn close to knocking off two of world's greatest Empire's at the time (British and Russian).  It took just about everything both those nations had, plus the United States, and a host of smaller but still important nations to finally defeat them.

Imagine if they were able to divide and conquer?  It's a scary thought.

Thank you, British Empire and Churchill 

SEE, i could kind of agree with that. but first i think i'm going to put another question in here.

when the 8th air force came into the battle, they took over the daytime bombing raids from the british. why? i think i had read that the british could not sustain the losses? as their aircraft were less well defended than our 17's and 24's?

 if that was the case, then i would think it was more like we saved each others collective asses, as with the british running night raids, and us running daytimie raids, the germans simply could not recover. i think.

[Saurdaukar]

there is some question whether that help would have come at all if the Battle of Britain had not been won.   

Good point.

[Badboy]

SEE, i could kind of agree with that. but first i think i'm going to put another question in here.

when the 8th air force came into the battle, they took over the daytime bombing raids from the british.

That depends on what Battle you are talking about, the 8th Air Force was deployed in Britain in 1942 almost two years AFTER the Battle of Britain had been won.

You seem to be talking about the war in general, and not the "Battle of Britain" which officially started on 10 July and ended on 31 October 1940

Badboy

[CAP1]

That depends on what Battle you are talking about, the 8th Air Force was deployed in Britain in 1942 almost two years AFTER the Battle of Britain had been won.

You seem to be talking about the war in general, and not the "Battle of Britain" which officially started on 10 July and ended on 31 October 1940

Badboy

well, with the question i poosed, i did kinda hijack to a more general war outlook on it........i realize now my error in timing of the mighty 8th comming to help........

[saantana]

Why is this thread even continuing?
Everyone knows the Battle of Britain was won by Polish Pilots 
And in 1941 or 42, we would be there to greet them again!

[CAP1]

Why is this thread even continuing?
Everyone knows the Battle of Britain was won by Polish Pilots 
And in 1941 or 42, we would be there to greet them again!

didn't they cause a lot of confusion with their accents, and in some cases not knowing english?>

it was the eagle squadrons that won it for them
and if i remember correctly from reading the americans that flew in those squadrons, gave up their american citizenship? to help?