Author Topic: Battle of Britain II  (Read 3942 times)

Offline saantana

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2008, 05:45:14 PM »
Furball, you own me both in the MA and on the bbs  :rofl
 :salute sir
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2008, 05:46:30 PM »
This is very debatable.
It is a general matter of knowledge that if the German focus was not switched to Berlin, had they continued to pound the raf fields and concentrate on destroying them, they would have won the war of attrition.

That was the very point I was disputing. That notion is a common fallacy.

The Germans were never winning the war of attrition, the facts simply don't support that. And as I pointed out early, not only did the Germans not deplete aircraft or pilot numbers, even if they had managed to permanently close any airfield (which they didn't and probably couldn't due to the ease with which runways could be repaired) it would have been a simple matter of relocation. Also if the Germans had attempted to attack airfields farther inland, they would have suffered far greater attrition rates themselves because the longer the German aircraft remained over England, the more they were attacked and shot down. Lastly, the aircraft of that day could take off from grass fields and could be dispersed with ease, so it is very unlikely that closing the airfields on the south coast would have effected the outcome, at worst it may have influenced the tactics being used and may have prolonged the battle, but even that is doubtful.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2008, 05:50:03 PM »
Basically, yes that's wrong.

The idea that the RAF came close to defeat is very dramatic and the concept of the "narrow margin" has more to do with dramatisation and common misconceptions than reality. The simple fact is that both RAF pilot and aircraft numbers were not reduced during the Battle of Britain. This was partly due to the success of Beaverbrook in his first months as Minister of Aircraft Production. He inherited a favourable upward swing, but his ruthless improvisation considerably fortified this. The so-called Harrogate Programme of January 1940 provided for a year’s output of 3,602 fighters (very precise). The total achieved was 4,283, which meant that nearly 352 fighters a month were forthcoming over the crucial summer and autumn months. The German output during the same period was barely half that.

One example of this kind of dramatisation can be seen in the description of events of Sunday 15th August 1940, the most intense day in the Battle, Churchill drove from Chequers to visit Air Vice-Marshal Park at Fighter Command HQ where he controlled the fighter squadrons covering the whole of Essex, Kent, Sussex and Hampshire. As they watched the lights on the key indicator boards it became apparent that there were no longer any reserve squadrons left on the board, and Churchill asked Park, "What other reserves have we?" "There are none," Park answered.

That often quoted exchange is used to create the feeling of a closely fought battle with drama worthy of Hollywood. It may have been true that there were no local reserves, or none that could be available in time to effect that days raids, but that's all. At no time during the Battle were the RAF ever close to defeat, they were not depleted in either aircraft, pilots or moral. However, when you take quotes like the one above, and include with them the fears and reservations quoted from other famous participants it is possible to paint a picture of a close call, or a narrow margin, a victory snatched from the jaws of defeat... but facts don't support that picture, and I suspect it probably has more to do with book sales than real history :)

Badboy


these reads kinda paint a different picture.

from everything i can remember reading when i was younger, england was very very close to defeat. the fact that they weren't is amazing testament to their fortitude.(i think thats the right word)

i really wish i could remember where i read it, but i did read once that they were so low on pilots, that there were new combat pilots being sent up with 20 hours and less in spitfires and hurricanes.
 i don't say that as a demeaning thing, again, it is a testament to them.

 but on the other hand, i had forgotten about all the things that slapsot posted too, so although we werent there in combat, we were there........sorta kinda,.

 and a big :salute to the starter of this thread, as it is interesting to speculate like this. it creates a good fun debate/conversation amongst all us internet geeks :D
http://www.johndclare.net/wwii6.htm
.
this is a bit of an interesting read./......

http://www.johndclare.net/wwii_Ready_for_War.htm


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Offline saantana

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2008, 05:50:41 PM »
That was the very point I was disputing. That notion is a common fallacy.

The Germans were never winning the war of attrition, the facts simply don't support that. And as I pointed out early, not only did the Germans not deplete aircraft or pilot numbers, even if they had managed to permanently close any airfield (which they didn't and probably couldn't due to the ease with which runways could be repaired) it would have been a simple matter of relocation. Also if the Germans had attempted to attack airfields farther inland, they would have suffered far greater attrition rates themselves because the longer the German aircraft remained over England, the more they were attacked and shot down. Lastly, the aircraft of that day could take off from grass fields and could be dispersed with ease, so it is very unlikely that closing the airfields on the south coast would have effected the outcome, at worst it may have influenced the tactics being used and may have prolonged the battle, but even that is doubtful.

Badboy 

Is it your opinion then that Germany never stood a chance, no matter what tactics they would have employed?
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Offline Rino

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2008, 06:05:46 PM »
That is rubbish, the RAF had plenty of experience by that point, they had been in the war since 1939 and had progressively improved everything.  We were not saved by the United States at all, it is debatable whether the British could have invaded mainland Europe on their own, but certainly was not saved.  The RAF saved Britain, and by doing that, enabled Britain to be free and made the liberation of Europe possible.  A lot is owed to all those men from all those countries that fought in the BoB.

In May 1942 Bomber Command launched their first 1,000 bomber raid.  The US 8th Air Force began operations some two months later?  Seems strange to me that the entry of the USA saved Britain...

     I hear this kind of stuff from the Brits all the time...face it, bombing was the only kind of offensive you guys
could mount in 42.  The allies were in major "backup" mode till 6/42.  That's all of them, US, UK and USSR.
Even after Midway, the big switch to offense didn't start till early 43 after Stalingrad.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2008, 07:48:58 PM »
That'll come as a surprise to the Brits and Americans who fought in North Africa.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Badboy

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2008, 09:11:52 PM »
Is it your opinion then that Germany never stood a chance, no matter what tactics they would have employed?

On the contrary, it is fairly easy to contrive a set of circumstances where it might have been successful. Based of course on the fact that it is easy to be wise with hindsight. However, given the ability to see the history and the mistakes that were made, correcting them could have changed the outcome.

For example:

  • The importance of the British Radar was underestimated and its function misunderstood. Leaving the coastal radar stations intact was a serious mistake, that with the wisdom of hindsight should have been taken out at all cost. It was also a mistake to bomb the open framed structures, that proved very difficult to destroy. It would have been far more effective to use commando raids or paratroopers to take out the radar, destroy the sites completely and kill or capture the operators for interrogation.  By doing that the Luftwaffe would have gained the element of surprise, vital in all military operations. Everything else they did from that point would have been more successful and resulted in lighter casualties. With out their eyes, the RAF would have lost the ability to scramble fighters to intercept specific raids, the RAF would have needed to mount patrols, something that was totally unsustainable. By the time raids were spotted it would have been too late to intercept them on the way in, if at all. The RAF Squadrons would have ended up widely scattered trying to find raids based on information from ground spotters, very often chasing distant friendly aircraft  up and down the coast and been very much less effective.  Achieving that advantage alone, could easily have turned the course of the Battle in 1940.
  • The importance of closing airfields was also misunderstood by both sides, the ability to relocate the aircraft with such ease made the effort almost futile, but trying to do it with air attacks alone was and still is only a temporary measure because filling up holes in the ground rarely presents any real difficulty. If you want to permanently deny the enemy the use of an airfield you need to have troops and tanks on the ground. Airborne assault again comes to mind, something that the Germans were very good at and honed to a fine art later in the war. That both sides misunderstood this back in 1940 is clear, in the German case because of they way the attacks were carried out out, and in the British case because of the unfortunate comment made by Dowding when the Germans switched their attacks to London he said it "... could be the German's biggest blunder."  a comment that has given the German attacks on British airfields far more merit in the eyes of some post war writers than it really deserved
  • Not getting troops on the ground as early as possible was the next mistake. Establishing a beachhead, even if it was initially done by airborne assault was vital, then the focus of the Luftwaffe could have been directed to ground support, local air superiority, and attacks on Navy ships to keep them out of the channel, all things that the Luftwaffe was better equipped for, and were much better at doing. As I mentioned earlier, England was ill prepared to repel invaders for some time after Dunkirk, and once a beachhead had been established it is doubtful that it could have been prevented from breaking out and pushing inland, because the Germans could then be more easily reinforced and because that type of offensive, using the Luftwaffe for close air support was formidable.
  • The importance of gaining total air superiority was misunderstood, it simply wasn't necessary. The Germans only needed to secure local air superiority for the initial landing and break out. Destroying the RAF in the air was not essential for an invasion, it was only essential for Goring's ego. The RAF would have been easier to destroy by overrunning their airfields, as they did in Poland, France and later in Russia. By attempting to destroy the RAF in the air the Luftwaffe allowed sufficient time to pass so that the invasion was doomed due to bad weather
  • Using tactical aircraft in a strategic role was another mistake that resulted in heavy losses. Facing a well trained, experienced fighter force highly motivated to defend their home territory, the Ju-87 Stukas and Bf-110s could not defend themselves effectively and the Bf-109’s short range was a problem.

The last point is an important one because during the Battle of Britain, the Germans attempted a strategic offensive with a Luftwaffe better equipped for a tactical offensive. The inadequate bombing power was a significant factor contributing to their failure.

However, few people may realise how close Germany came to having the worlds first strategic bomber fleet, equipped with four engined bombers that may have turned the tide at the Battle of Britain because not only would many of the German fighter escort problems have been solved, but the increase in the effectiveness of the bombers may well have been enough to tip the scales between victory and defeat.

For America, England and Germany alike, the development of a strategic bomber fleet rested with men of genius! For America, there was General William "Billy" E. Mitchell, who holds first place among men of exceptional practical foresight and military intuition! Despite his clear-sighted, and farsighted prophetic vision, Mitchell's ideas were not readily accepted by orthodox military thinkers in the USA, but despite many hardships and the odd court-martial he proved that he was right. In England, both Winston Churchill and "Bomber" Harris shared a vision of the efficacy of true strategic air power!

That vision was also shared by one man whose foresight might have changed the fortunes of the Luftwaffe. Major-General Wever had plans to produce four engined bombers as early as 1935 capable of carrying large bomb loads from German bases as far as the north of Scotland. The Dornier 19 had four 650hp radial engines and a top speed of 200mph and a range of almost 1000 miles. The Junkers 89 had four 960hp engines and a top speed of 245mph and similar range. However, Wever was killed in a flying accident in 1936 before his plans became concrete. In 1937 Kesselring was forced to sign the order to cancel the Do19 and Ju89 by Goring who knew that they could produce three twin engined bombers for the same time and cost as two four-engined bombers. He was quoted as saying "The Fuhrer will ask not how big the bombers are, but how many there are!" such was the fate of Germany's strategic bomber fleet.

Germany had lost the only man with the vision and ability to change their fortunes, and handed it over to Goring, a man who can (and that is being kind) only be described as incompetent! What would have happened if Wever had not perished in a plane crash, if Mitchell had not persevered, or if Harris had not had Churchill's support? It is almost certain that our history books would be very different than they are today, and perhaps they would not even be written in the same language.

Badboy
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 09:14:45 PM by Badboy »
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Offline APDrone

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2008, 09:28:01 PM »
Basically, yes that's wrong.

The idea that the RAF came close to defeat is very dramatic and the concept of the "narrow margin" has more to do with dramatisation and common misconceptions than reality. The simple fact is that both RAF pilot and aircraft numbers were not reduced during the Battle of Britain. This was partly due to the success of Beaverbrook in his first months as Minister of Aircraft Production. He inherited a favourable upward swing, but his ruthless improvisation considerably fortified this. The so-called Harrogate Programme of January 1940 provided for a year’s output of 3,602 fighters (very precise). The total achieved was 4,283, which meant that nearly 352 fighters a month were forthcoming over the crucial summer and autumn months. The German output during the same period was barely half that.

...

Thank you for the explanation.  After the first few posts, I wondered if the dire straits of the RAF were exagerrated to drum up support or to ridicule the decision making of the German commanders.  Seems that a lot of the history I read 30 years ago has been refined a bit as more information has become available.

 :salute
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Offline angelsandair

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2008, 10:43:45 PM »
Britain , Britain , Britain

Good point, I can get twice or three times as many kills in a Spit 5 vs. the 109F. 109F just isn't powerful enough compared to the Spit 5.
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Offline hlbly

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2008, 11:14:57 PM »
 Here is a little more . "What if" Rommel was a corps command in Army group G ,<Quick Hienz Guerdians Unit in the first phase of Russian campaign> in Africa . Imagine a German force composed of 3 or more Panzer Corps . Plus a few dozen Infantry Corps . They take the Suez canal take the middle east , the near east . Then you have them threatening the Russians on two fronts . What would the loss of the Suez canal done to the British Empire . Little scary isn't it ?

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2008, 12:45:03 AM »
good points furball and badboy  :aok

answer in short,

  Britain,  and of course the crazy poles and all the other members of The Few!  :salute
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2008, 01:13:22 AM »
Germany had a tactical bombing force, supplemented by twin engine medium bombers that could take on the role of a strategic bomber but could not do that well.

Compare that to the combined might of a strategic bombing force of the United States and GB that (with the exception of oil/fuel) could not bring Germany to its knees solely on the bombing alone in almost 5 years of bombing. The Allies had to send in ground troops, aircraft cannot take occupy land.

That said, the Naval Arm of Germany wasn't at all prepared for a cross channel invasion, and the naval might of GB was superior to begin with.

Germany could of succeeded in invading GB if;

1. Germany had isolated GB from supplies, via the U-Boat campaign.

2. Germany had maintained a strict anti-naval campaign which forced the Brits to move all their sea assets north, no less than 1-2 days travel from the Channel.

3. Germany had maintained a airfield attack plan which forced all of GBs aircraft assets north of London.

4. Germany had crushed the will of the people, or convinced them of Germanys ability to see to the populaces needs better than their government of GB prior to the crossing of the channel.

5. The Germans had a plan like 'Fortitude' to give their invasion 24-36 hours of free reign.

6. Germany could maintain peace with Russia; the amount of men needed to occupy GB, Africa, France and the rest of Europe would of crippled any chance of a Russian campaign.
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Offline Furball

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2008, 01:51:31 AM »
     I hear this kind of stuff from the Brits all the time...face it, bombing was the only kind of offensive you guys
could mount in 42.  The allies were in major "backup" mode till 6/42.  That's all of them, US, UK and USSR.
Even after Midway, the big switch to offense didn't start till early 43 after Stalingrad.

"Hear this stuff"?  What exactly in my post is the "stuff" that you "hear"?  I said Britain being free enabled the liberation of Europe, i said this because by just being there meant that the allies had a whacking great big unsinkable aircraft carrier off the coast of France. 

The only offensive land operations we could do during that time was North Africa.  I have gone over already what i said about saving ourselves.

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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2008, 02:54:06 AM »

 The problem is, like so many "what-if"s, every single point both Furball and Badboy mentions is casually based upon the results and outcome already decided through actual course of history - hindsight on what caused the German failure is already presupposed. I can probably come up with as credible suppositions refuting every single point mentioned, but like said, its basically meaningless to do so because in the end, what-ifs are basically the same thing as fiction. You can make things up anyway you want.

 Its basically a thought-experiment with some logic and a lot of wishful thinking for both sides of the debate.

 Yeah, its fun and interesting, but ultimately a waste of time and a great way to make people fight over nothing.

 

 

Offline saantana

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Re: Battle of Britain II
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2008, 03:31:42 AM »
The problem is, like so many "what-if"s, every single point both Furball and Badboy mentions is casually based upon the results and outcome already decided through actual course of history - hindsight on what caused the German failure is already presupposed. I can probably come up with as credible suppositions refuting every single point mentioned, but like said, its basically meaningless to do so because in the end, what-ifs are basically the same thing as fiction. You can make things up anyway you want.

 Its basically a thought-experiment with some logic and a lot of wishful thinking for both sides of the debate.

 Yeah, its fun and interesting, but ultimately a waste of time and a great way to make people fight over nothing.

Is your name taken from 'Kielbasa'?

Badboy! You make me wish I took those debating classes in high school!  :D I rest my case.
S!
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