Author Topic: knights  (Read 2772 times)

Offline infowars

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Re: knights
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2008, 11:57:15 AM »
I was just thinking about posting something similar.  I don't really understand why people don't want to coordinate.  I find nothing more immersing than flying in formation or a formation of bombers going NOE to their target.

Since I have flown with a squad now I find it boring flying around aimlessly with no goal in mind.  I find it much more interesting and quite intense at times flying with people and coordinating for a cause. 

So I recommend every one join missions.  Pick a mission leader and execute a plan.  Much more fun... 
SWneo <==== In game name. Cpt 125th Spartan Warriors.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: knights
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2008, 12:24:58 PM »
Ok, if you do not enjoy reading my sermonizing pontifications stop reading now. I am actually glad this got posted in the forums as my fingers grow weary of typing this almost everyday in-game.

AH is a game, but most of us work for a living. Work is generally very organized as your actions are largely prescribed by your 'superiors'. Once organization in a game becomes mandatory it ceases to become a game, it becomes unpaid work. Some people enjoy the rigid structure of missions, some just want to get organized now and then as a change of pace, some just want to do their own thing, trusting their own judgement to apply themselves where most useful. Once coercion is applied at any level to attempt to make people organize against their will, when they otherwise would not be inclined to do so, you make the game less fun for them. If you make the game less fun for enough people on your team often enough, guess what will happen? They will either leave your team, not play at all, or squelch you.

In AH we have many types of players at various levels of skill and experience with affinities toward a wide variety of gameplay modes. It is human nature to be pragmatic, left to their own devices people tend to apply themselves in such a way as to achieve a goal while getting the most personal satisfaction from the experience. So, in essence people are motivated by two things, goals and personal satisfaction aka. fun. Your goals are not likely my goals just as your idea of fun may not be my idea of fun. To be ultimately successful organization in the game happens when you collect together people with the same goal and the same idea of fun. Trying to organize people with entirely different goals and ideas of fun is like herding cats and will inevitably destroy any sense of continuity of effort you may have enjoyed.

For the purpose of this post I am going to use the following comparison between Rooks and Bishops to illustrate my point. I am not trying to malign either one, but as the OP's comments are directed toward Knights, I feel this is the best way to clarify the point objectively.

Bishops tend to organize a lot. That organization tends to be applied in a few consistant ways. All of those applications almost exclusively involve the use of an overwhelming force against a nonexistent or relatively insignificant defense. Very rarely do Bishops apply organization against an airfield with significant defense except when they are losing a fight and bring a large contingent of heavy bombers at high altitude to drop the hangers. If significant defense arrives or materializes at an airfield prior to affecting capture Bishops tend to evaporate only to manifest at an undefended field elsewhere shortly thereafter...

Rooks tend to not be strategically organized. Rooks tend to favor large fights within which they cooperate only on the tactical level. Efforts to capture fields tend to precipitate, almost accidentally,  from the outcome of fights in a relatively unorganized way. Rooks are attracted to furballs, as more Rooks enter the fray the fight pushes toward the enemy field, eventually the furball is essentially won and CAP is in place. Once this happens the fighter pilots who are so inclined, with nothing to kill, land and come back heavy with ordnance or troops to help affect capture. Once that base is captured the fight progresses to the next field in a logical progression or to another burgeoning fight on the map and the process continues.

As you can see both countries are motivated by different goals. Bishops tend to be motivated by the goal of affecting the capture of as many fields per unit time as possible which requires organization. While Rooks are motivated by participating in the most enthralling furball possible which does not necessarily require organization. Both countries end up achieving inadvertent secondary goals which serve to ameliorate the potential dissatisfaction of the minority who do not necessarily share the primary goal. Bishop furballers get to dispatch some defenders and Rook landgrabbers get to take some fields. But, for the most part, the primary collective goal dictates the behavior of the group and to a large degree determines its respective level of organization.

The Bishop approach is, in my opinion, the most efficient method of "winning the war". This is especially true on the HUGE maps with hundreds of fields which are impossible to adequately defend reactively. Fighting for bases on HUGE maps really isn't necessary especially with our current reset requirements, so furballing is actually a waste of time and resources from this perspective. To "win the war" you must simply take their fields faster than they can take yours or get their own back. This works for Bishops as the majority of their players share the primary goal of "winning the war". The organization toward that end that they achieve is predicated upon that fact. This is what most Bishops find fun.

Rooks on the other hand are motivated by fighting. There are a few pure "win the war" types on Rooks just as there are a few pure furballers on Bishops. But, for the most part Rook's primary goal and fun-factor is derived from fighting and winning air battles. If the war happens to be won in the process, so be it, but that is not the primary concern. Rooks will often verbally lynch a friendly who drops the fighter hangers or a CV at a good furball even if Rooks are losing the fight at that particular time, even if it ultimately results in the capture of the enemy field. This would be considered ridiculous on Bishops, the same person would likely be heralded as a hero.

Now, let's take for granted I am oversimplifying things for the purpose of contrast. But, it should be readily apparent to any thinking person that trying to organize Rooks to achieve the "win the war" goal they do not ubiquitously share would be futile. It would be just as futile as demanding Bishops suddenly denounce the milk-hording of fields in favor of protracted 5 hour furballs for their own sake. Over-time, human nature brings together people who share the same goals and find the same things fun. If you do not share the same goals as another the surest way to piss them off and alienate yourself is to try to superimpose your goals and ideas of fun upon them. I would even go so far as to say this would make them even more resistant to your ideas or pleas for help. So, if you can't force people to organize to achieve your goals and that ruins your fun-factor you only have two viable options....

1) Switch teams to one that embodies the same goals and ideas of fun.

2) Get creative and find ways to fullfill yourself in a symbiotic way, establishing an ancillary niche for yourself and the like-minded minority that does not require universal approval or participation.

Now applying this to the OP's lambasting of Knights. As a Muppet I fly for the Knights a lot. The Knights are a country in constant flux, they are an ever-changing mixing pot of styles and people. Unlike Bishops and Rooks there is no predominance of one type of player or another. This is what makes Knights a lot of fun but also potentially frustrating. Knights are full of people, more so than the other two countries, that are willing, able and enjoy playing in different modes. As they do not tend to typecast themselves as a furballer, buffer, GV'er etc they are extremely adaptable and dynamic, but also the least focused for the same reasons. Organizing Knights is hard for two main reasons...

1) They have the widest diversity of goals and 'fun-factors'
2) They don't have enormous squads like Bishops do that tend to create cohesiveness of effort.

But, as I mentioned earlier, human nature makes people pragmatic. This pragmatism combined with the Knights diversity of talent individually and collectively makes them indomitable and very unpredictable to fight against. Unlike Bishops and Rooks that tend to behave in a certain predictable way, you never know what Knights will do. So, in a very real way rigidly organizing Knights would destroy the very thing that makes them unique, fun and a challenge to play against.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 03:25:16 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline waystin2

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Re: knights
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2008, 12:27:57 PM »
Titanic Tuesday is the day that the Pigs tend to run fighter sweeps or get into extended GV battles.  As others have said before, there really is no need to go on attack for territory on TT.  We consider Titanic Tuesday a day off to kill, maim, or destroy whatever makes you happy with little or no structure! :rock
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline uptown

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Re: knights
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2008, 12:31:11 PM »
All hail the Queen!


Won't you join my bloody mission?
Lighten up Francis

Offline Dragon

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Re: knights
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2008, 01:26:43 PM »
 :salute Zazen, well put.
SWchef  Lieutenant Colonel  Squadron Training Officer  125th Spartan Warriors

Offline Kaw1000

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Re: knights
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2008, 02:35:50 PM »
:huh

I'm loyal to the furball and I've been dedicated to it for over 10 years. Isn't that enough?
Your also loyal to team switching!! :lol  Stay Bish will ya!!!
See Rule# 5 on just about every thread!

Offline ROX

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Re: knights
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2008, 02:42:11 PM »
All hail the Queen! (Image removed from quote.)


Won't you join my bloody mission?


JEBUS, UPTOWN...That's the THIRD monitor I spit Iced Tea on this week!!!


 :rofl       :rofl      :rofl      :rofl       :rofl       :rofl




ROX

Offline Damned Goose

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Re: knights
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2008, 02:57:22 PM »
Rox,
 I totally forgot you are in Arkansas. Let's hook up bro. I believe I am 20 minutes away from you. Looked for me on line you killer. No Richard Simmons either...Goose :rock :rock :rock :aok
The only thing to fear is fear itself..

Offline ROX

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Re: knights
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2008, 03:11:56 PM »
No problem...let's arrange on PM.  I live off Airport road in HS, about a mile west of the MLK bypass and 6 blocks from Lake Hamilton.

Both of the pictures above...

To quote Ron White:  "Things that make you go......bbbbbbblblblblblbllbl blblblblblblblblblblblblblblb lblbl."


Back on topic: 

Mr original poster: except for Titanic Tuesday, (when everybody furballs) knights tend to furball.  However, once they see that their bases are getting gobbled up like Pacman, it only takes someone to put a well thought out strategic mission together and advertise well and they will answer the call.  I'd say read Zazen's post a couple of times then feel free to come fly with the Claim Jumpers, Richthofen II, Precision (+), or my squad for awhile and make an educated decision.

Please don't make a decision based on a day, a week, or even a month.

Once you fly with a group for awhile, they become almost like family.  It might seem like a disfunctional family at times, but a family no less.

Good Luck!





ROX


EDIT:  to fix all the derned typos!

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 03:20:02 PM by ROX »

Offline Zazen13

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Re: knights
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2008, 03:26:27 PM »
NT
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 03:44:17 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Nilsen

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Re: knights
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2008, 03:54:02 PM »
I can help take some ground sometimes, but I never join the missions. I just tag along or go there if i see a big red bar :) Dont feel the need to go in missions were some little general is telling me what to pork or not to pork to get the place done. One thing is for sure, and that is that if i am over an enemy field and have some eggs I will bomb whatever a little general tells me NOT to bomb. Im not a total arse though.. I will still clear his six if he gets into trouble  :D


Effective base captures used to be fun for me many years ago when it usually meant a fight would get going and maps got reset after war win to ANOTHER map hehe. Now i just enjoy the fights and have fun :)


Offline infowars

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Re: knights
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2008, 04:05:48 PM »
I think coordinated operations add another element which I like.  It is difficult enough to look after yourself and it increases the difficulty if your also  looking out for a team mate. 
SWneo <==== In game name. Cpt 125th Spartan Warriors.

Offline uptown

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Re: knights
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2008, 04:11:53 PM »
It seems like all the missions ran by people that know what their doing anymore are NOE. I hate NOE missions. :salute
Lighten up Francis

Offline Motherland

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Re: knights
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2008, 04:12:38 PM »
Yep!

Offline Zazen13

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Re: knights
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2008, 04:19:09 PM »
I can help take some ground sometimes, but I never join the missions. I just tag along or go there if i see a big red bar :) Dont feel the need to go in missions were some little general is telling me what to pork or not to pork to get the place done. One thing is for sure, and that is that if i am over an enemy field and have some eggs I will bomb whatever a little general tells me NOT to bomb. Im not a total arse though.. I will still clear his six if he gets into trouble  :D


Effective base captures used to be fun for me many years ago when it usually meant a fight would get going and maps got reset after war win to ANOTHER map hehe. Now i just enjoy the fights and have fun :)



Yup, like I've said in another thread not long ago. Participating in a mission allows the chance for a measure of collective success to be achieved and shared that an unskilled/inexperienced player is not likely to be able to achieve individually. This makes it very appealing to new players which is not necessarily a bad thing. This game has a phenomenally steep learning curve, being told what to do and how to do it, while being rewarded with geographic candy is a great way to learn the game. Being, what I call, a "mission lemming", as a new player, provides many opportunities to progress by virtue of emulation, imitation and the safety of many friendlies who have a vested interest in your continued survival for the good of the mission.

Most eventually grow weary of being tightly 'supervised' and restrained within a very narrow scope of gameplay and move on. But, some never do, and that's not a problem either unless they insist on the tyrannical, dictatorial imposition of their goals and ideas of fun upon others.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:25:52 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc