Adjustment to Scoring (idea)

[Murdr]

Based on my un-scientific subjective observations, by a 4:1 margin. If you add the people who will also continue to purely vulch to make base capturing easier it would drop to around 3:1 (a lot are very likely the same people that just have both motivations). If I am even close in my estimation, that means 75% of those that currently vulch would instead elect to allow the defender his 30 seconds to get his wheels up before pouncing.

Ok, what's your take on the other side of that.  For every 1 player who now breaks cap, how many more will be willing to join in the attempt if they are given the edge of no concequences if they fail in the first 30 seconds?

[DoNKeY]

Donkey, sorry if my sense of humor was too cryptic.  Frankly you can go shove your skirt.  I already made it clear I consider it fun under certian conditions.  If you want, I can probably go pull quotes from other threads where I was more explicit if you feel I am avoiding something.

I'm sorry that you got defensive and hostile over this.  I asked a question, and didn't get a clear answer.  I guess that's the problem with the internet, it's hard to sometimes show emotions...

Frankly, I'm just trying to see how this:

And before you get it in your head to start spinning.  Keep in mind the thousands of posts I've made advocating "the fight" and "the furball" and the time I've spent teaching "how to", and my perpensity to jump on a soapbox when it comes to better gameplay.

can coincide with this:

Personally, I just find it fun.  If you changed the rules of the game to say "that never happend", I feel at some level that is an infringement on my fun. 

I already made it clear I consider it fun under certian conditions. 

in regards to the "fight."


Let me ask you this.  Do you really think that vulching is constructive to "the fight?"  Or even a furball for that matter?

If you want, I can probably go pull quotes from other threads where I was more explicit if you feel I am avoiding something.

Would you so kindly (just for the sake of it)?  (I guess I should add one of these... )

[crockett]

Ok I can safely say I get your point.
However your going against some basic cashflow rules. The ACM of the player crossection can be formed into a pyramid, those with most ACM are at the top and therefore are the least in number, and those with less and less getting towards the wider bottom, where most of the player base resides. Would you agree with me?
If you cut the rewarding of being able to 'score' while 'vulching' for those at the lower end of the ACM pyramid, you might take their fun away, and they might take their business elsewhere. Some will choose to become better, some won't however.
While personally I like 1v1 combat, just not against the top dogs as I suck in comparison I love vulching, and when a field is being vulch and I have to protect it (most likely because my CO tells me he will boot me if I don't  ) then I switch to attack mode. And I don't get mad if I die.
Deal with it please! And let the guy get the kill he deserves, for you upping from a capped field.

Well the problem with that kind of thinking, is it's the same as saying every race car driver should win the race, because it's not fair others aren't better. The reason there are guys at the top of the pyramid, is simply because they have put years into developing their skill sets or just have a natural ability to be good at this. Why should the less skilled be given a short cut to the top that they didn't earn?


edit...
Granted I understand there is a steep learning curve with this game and at the same time needs to be fun... but we should be pushing the focus on developing ACM skills and fighting rather than trying to figure out the easiest way to score good.

[crockett]

Ok, what's your take on the other side of that.  For every 1 player who now breaks cap, how many more will be willing to join in the attempt if they are given the edge of no concequences if they fail in the first 30 seconds?

Isn't that the point, to give incentive to actually fight? I thought fighting was what this game was based on, granted land grabing is a imporant factor, but shouldn't the land grab requre a fight?

[Zazen13]

I would argue that chances he could "still vulch your arse off" will diminish.  I really believe there are side effects that will change the dynamics of a base capture, it will be a rarity to find a capped field that is allowed to have any type of hanger standing for very long.

I think we're talking the lesser of evils here. For the sake of contrast we'll assume people don't already vulch AND often drop FH's, which is far from the truth in reality. For confirmation, just ask everyone who tries to get an Il2 up because only their BH's are left up so the vulchers wouldn't even have the miniscule challenge of having to vulch other fighters...

Which is better...

1) Having hangers stay up but all defenders get pendulum pass vulched the second they spawn...or
2) Have the hangers taken down more often but give defenders the opportunity, at the very least initially, to get up and mount some sort of realistic, reactionary low Alt/E defense.

I would vote for option 2, option 1 leaves no recourse to realistically fight, it really doesn't matter to the defenders if FHs are up or not as they get popped the second they spawn. Option 2, even if only marginally successful provides an opportunity for an actual fight which is a lot more than you can say for option 1 99.9% of the time.

Option 2 would allow the defenders to at least have a chance of intercepting low and/or divebombing heavies. Option 1 leaves no option to protect their strats against heavies at all. So, assuming your are correct and FH's will get prejudicial attention, it will likely be at least partially negated by the fact defenders may be able to destroy low/diving bombers forcing them to go higher, then the high ones will take much longer to get there making keeping FH's down harder. The same would be true for jabo's. If they wanted to keep FH's down, they would all have to come heavy and give up E to divebomb making them more vulnerable to the defenders already up.

[DoNKeY]

Based on my un-scientific subjective observations, by a 4:1 margin. If you add the people who will also continue to purely vulch to make base capturing easier it would drop to around 3:1 (a lot are very likely the same people that just have both motivations). If I am even close in my estimation, that means 75% of those that currently vulch would instead elect to allow the defender his 30 seconds to get his wheels up before pouncing.

Alright, that's what I thought. Thanks!

Isn't that the point, to give incentive to actually fight? I thought fighting was what this game was based on, granted land grabing is a imporant factor, but shouldn't the land grab requre a fight?

Base capture was implemented in order to spur on air to air combat (as that was/is the main focus of the game).

[Murdr]

Isn't that the point, to give incentive to actually fight? I thought fighting was what this game was based on, granted land grabing is a imporant factor, but shouldn't the land grab requre a fight?

That wasn't an answer.

[Murdr]

I think we're talking the lesser of evils here. For the sake of contrast we'll assume people don't already vulch AND often drop FH's, which is far from the truth in reality.

How many times to I have to type flat/any/all hangers?  Please quote where I said anything about FH.  I didn't, you are actually talking past me with a modified plausible argument rather than replying to what I post.

[crockett]

That wasn't an answer.

How is it not a answer? We should be pushing the focus of this game on fighting rather than constant overwhelming hoards and gamey flying.

[Murdr]

How is it not a answer? We should be pushing the focus of this game on fighting rather than constant overwhelming hoards and gamey flying.

I asked for a speculative ratio.  Did I get one in reply?  No.

[yanksfan]

I would argue that chances he could "still vulch your arse off" will diminish.  I really believe there are side effects that will change the dynamics of a base capture, it will be a rarity to find a capped field that is allowed to have any type of hanger standing for very long.

Add more fighter hangers to base and seperate them as was done with v-bases, also add a second vehicle hanger at the airfeild.

if you really want to cut down on vulchers seperate "airkills" from 'groundkills". don't know how many "Aces" would enjoy their names in lights if everyone could see there ten kills were with the wheels down.

Also there is a diference between a guy supressing a field in order to capture and a flat out vulcher. The first is nessasry and the second is for dweebs.

And everyone should remember that base capture is only there to incurage a fight. Altho I personally think that it has grown far beyond HTC's original intent and they should recognize that by now.

maybe just making airfields larger and of more realistic design, keep the same amt of hangers just spread them out over an area twice the size. maybe have a seperate runway or two out a distance and away from the main field.

[saantana]

With all due respect to parties involved I still think this thread if fundamentaly wrong.
You cannot argue this point with the majority of players because apart from lets say the top 50 players on the boards with very good ACM there is around 3000 to 4000 players, or maybe more, who enjoy other aspects of the game including vulching and getting scores for it, including myself.
I just think you are outnumbered in this argument.
Now I do not think it's a bad idea. Let there be the 30 second delay. I personally don't care, as 30 seconds is not enough to level with my E state anyway and I will kill you just like as if you had 1 second. It will however, make an effort to do a base capture with my role being fighter support to NOT be rewarded for my work of keeping defenders away from the town killers. That takes away from my fun. Sorry I do not support that.

[BiPoLaR]

Murdr why are you the only one out of everyone on the bbs being a hard***
dude chill youve already voiced your opinion, weve heard it now move along.
we all get the point that it pisses you off, that if this was to take affect you couldnt vulch for score...

Damn bro give it a rest

[crockett]

I asked for a speculative ratio.  Did I get one in reply?  No.

Well there is no way to give a accurate speculative ratio because it would just be my opinion.. So I could say 95% of all vulchers are there just for score.. However would that be accurate?

This is what I think.. yes there are legit base cap vulches to capture a base but those tend to be NOE raids where the sole purpose is to capture the base with as little fight as possible.

The other side is a vulch that gets started by out numbering the other side and once the uppers stop coming the vulchers will eventually focus on the town if they can maintain cap. I'd say that is a good 90% of the current vulching going on.

I will give you this for proof of that.. Just look at the film I posted earlier in this thread..

here I'll post it again so you don't have to dig..
http://www.wargamerx.com/films//vulch-field.ahf

As I take off and get air born, you can adjust the views to look to the right and see the town is almost completely up and untouched. Yet the enemy cons have almost de-acked the base and are trying to vulch. This means they aren't there to capture the base as a primary reason. They are there to get kills and get a vulch going if possible.

if they were there to capture the base, they could have shelled the town down with the esscort ship and then started the vulch if they needed it to capture the base. Instead they focused on killing base ack to set up a vulch party.

[DoNKeY]

Well there is no way to give a accurate speculative ratio because it would just be my opinion.. So I could say 95% of all vulchers are there just for score.. However would that be accurate?

This is what I think.. yes there are legit base cap vulches to capture a base but those tend to be NOE raids where the sole purpose is to capture the base with as little fight as possible.

The other side is a vulch that gets started by out numbering the other side and once the uppers stop coming the vulchers will eventually focus on the town if they can maintain cap. I'd say that is a good 90% of the current vulching going on.

I will give you this for proof of that.. Just look at the film I posted earlier in this thread..

here I'll post it again so you don't have to dig..
http://www.wargamerx.com/films//vulch-field.ahf

As I take off and get air born, you can adjust the views to look to the right and see the town is almost completely up and untouched. Yet the enemy cons have almost de-acked the base and are trying to vulch. This means they aren't there to capture the base as a primary reason. They are there to get kills and get a vulch going if possible.

if they were there to capture the base, they could have shelled the town down with the escort ship and then started the vulch if they needed it to capture the base. Instead they focused on killing base ack to set up a vulch party.

Yep, becuase most vulchers are intent on an easy, helpless kill to 1) pad their scores 2) to get their names in the lights so they can be "recognized"  or, in most cases, do it for both.